2.0 liter Engine Build

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wild man smith
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2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by wild man smith » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:13 pm

Just looking for feedback on the Bus Engine I am putting together. 1.8 liter case, oval port exhaust. Purchased 2 new AMC 2.0 liter cylinder heads, came with came with all 12 studs needed, stainless valves. I polished the combustion chamber area, did a light lapping of the factory valve job, and measured volume. 61cc, plus dished 94 mm piston17cc. Will be using .020 base shim . Engine calculator shows7.3 to one compression ratio with the 71mm stroke. Went with a Webcam 91 grind and Hydraulic lifters. 0.425inch valve lift, 10.8 mm for the metric measure. Intake valve opens 9 degree BTDC, closes 45 degrees ABDC, exhaust opens 45 degrees BBDC, closes 9 degree ATDC. Advertised duration 265 degrees intake/exhaust. Will be using straight cut aftermarket cam/crank gear. ConRods are at machine shop getting small ends rebushed. Rod bearing condition appeared very good on dissambly. Estimating 70 to 90 thousand miles on this block, It was installed by a PO before I bought her 11 years ago. Will use Pertronix Vacuum advance distributor, 3rd generation, one of their coils, NGK plugs. Dual carb setup, going with Dual single Barrel Weber ICT setup. New Electric fuel pump, regulator from original carb setup. Pistons/cylinders have 5000 miles on them, planning to re ring, hone and re use. Cleaned and polished the domes, ring lands clearance is within spec, as is all 3 ring gaps in the barrels. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome. Plan to use Bus for a material hauler for the gardening /landscaping project, and for trips to the Oregon Coast for camping outings. Running gear (brakes, front end, suspension, wheel bearings,shocks) have all been kept up since purchase, just replaced all the brake fluid last month.

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Bleyseng
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:40 pm

Return the straight cut cam gears for a stock set as those are pretty noisy . Why did you buy those?
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

wild man smith
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by wild man smith » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:29 pm

Thank you for the Input. Went with the straight gears because A. less thrust on camshaft thrust bearing B matched set,( with new gear on old gear could be noisy too. ) C Noisy, no problem as long as the timing is accurate. D this cam gear HAS OFFSET WASHERS, could change the cam timing if desired, for low end, or higher end. On another note, the machinist called , and has the conrods re bushed on the pin end. 85 bucks, removed old, installed new, drilled the oil holes, honed to proper fit. Happy guy here. Previous setup had a single 2bbl Weber progressive (iced sometimes) , points in an 009 distributor , and really tired cylinder heads. Hydraulic lifter in one bore lost its retaining clip, was still running tho. There were two different maker heads on this one too. Still need to split the case and clean inspect the inner sanctum. Everything from the case out is clean, or new. I have fittings to plumb in an oil Pressure guage, any favorites? The piston rings, cam bearings, rod bearings cam gear set, and seals are in the shop. have my barrel shims, tube of Curel, and my 35 year old set of Snap On Tools. 5 gallons in the tank to clean her up. will drain her when installing the new electric fuel pump and associated plumbing. I am hoping the engine will go 60 mph on the flats, and drivable around town. Had this vehicle 11 years now been a good one. :flower:

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Bleyseng
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by Bleyseng » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:40 am

Should be able to do 70 mph all day long as that's how they were build back in the day.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Amskeptic
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:40 am

wild man smith wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:13 pm

Intake valve opens 9 degree BTDC, closes 45 degrees ABDC,
exhaust opens 45 degrees BBDC, closes 9 degree ATDC.

Remember that high performance camshafts such as this do not breathe well at idle or take-off. If you are using your bus as a work vehicle, this is especially important.
VW buses are more driveable and enjoyable when they pull well from down low. Dual aftermarket carbs with performance camshafts often have poor airflow when you need it (literally too much breathing at idle/slow speeds slows down the velocity to the point that you get poor atomization) and they "come on cam" at RPMS that you rarely use, like 55-70 mph in 3rd gear.

Is this camshaft recommended for hydraulic lifters or are you switching to solid lifters?
I recommend that you do some more research and communicate your needs exactly to the vendors you use.
Colin
(p.s. fooling with cam timing after a build literally puts in a research and development mode where you have to tear down the engine for every little tweak. Likewise, a straight-cut gear set on a VW bus that is doing work duties is sort of like a blower hemi Dodge delivering pizza)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 121,400 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 92,435 miles

wild man smith
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by wild man smith » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:26 pm

thank you very much for your interest and replies gentlemen. I have the con rods back from the machine shop, Gary did a beautiful job , removed old bushings, pressed in the new , and used the Sunnen hone machine(50's vintage) for the finishing. The new bushings from Halsey automotive were solid, he also drilled the two oil holes in each bushing. 85 bucks, I was glad to have it done. 730 SE 9th Street, Portland 97214. real sanitary shop, nice guy to work with too. Cam is suitable for Hydraulic lifters, note your concern on the low end power. Forgot to mention this has an automatic trans. AC.net recommended this grind for auto trans use. Talked to the WEBCAM customer hotline, no special springs needed, just check clearances during assembly(valve to valve clearance, coil bind, and guide to retainer clearance.) I pulled the pistons and liners off in place, short block is still in the vehicle. Still have to mike the crankshaft(bearings were in reasonable shape on the rods}, and give her a thourough bath. Too much rain for this old man today(Portland liquid sunshine), so I made up some gaskets for the two little covers over the aluminum flappers in the fan plenum to heat exchanger. Still need some new bolts for the fan hub, figure it is cheap insurance for this trouble spot. Could use some tips on splitting the halves, what do you fellows do? This part of the engine is virgin territory for me, in 25 years as a line mechanic, I have never hade one split apart. Was usually used replacement engine time there in Homer Alaska where I worked. The buses were not real popular that far north, not enough heat. No hurry here, and thanks again for the "off the line " power comment with this proposed different cam grind. Mike.

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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by wild man smith » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:48 pm

Web Cam Type 4 "Hydraulic" Camshaft, 91 Grind, (265 Duration, .430" Lift), 00-422 is designed for Type 4 engines, and it's specs are .430" Valve Lift with stock 1.3:1 Rockers, 265 degrees of advertised duration, and 234 degrees of duration at .050". This cam will NOT work with stock FI, but works well with aftermarket FI or carburetors!
Web Cam camshafts are what we consider a "High End" camshaft, they are fantastic! You can have the exact cam you want, you select the Lobe Center and Clearancing, but these camshafts cost a lot (they are worth it). Web Cam always is State Of The Art in their grinds, they aren't using grinds from 30 years ago, ALWAYS the latest technology! If you don't have the budget for a Web Cam grind, you will probably be happy with a SCAT Type 4 Grind.
This particular Web Cam grind is a stop larger than the stock FI Grind. It will NOT work with stock FI, you'll need dual carbs or an aftermarket FI. But this cam is fantastic with Automatic Transmissions!
This is a nice upgrade on stockish engines, it's an outstanding bus cam! HD Springs are required! This cam works best with Compression from 8-8.3:1. Power band is from 1000-4500. from the Aircooled . net Vendor site. Thoughts anyone?

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Amskeptic
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:59 pm

wild man smith wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:48 pm
Web Cam Type 4 "Hydraulic" Camshaft, 91 Grind, (265 Duration, .430" Lift), 00-422 is designed for Type 4 engines, and it's specs are .430" Valve Lift with stock 1.3:1 Rockers, 265 degrees of advertised duration, and 234 degrees of duration at .050". This cam will NOT work with stock FI, but works well with aftermarket FI or carburetors!
Web Cam camshafts are what we consider a "High End" camshaft, they are fantastic! You can have the exact cam you want, you select the Lobe Center and Clearancing, but these camshafts cost a lot (they are worth it). Web Cam always is State Of The Art in their grinds, they aren't using grinds from 30 years ago, ALWAYS the latest technology! If you don't have the budget for a Web Cam grind, you will probably be happy with a SCAT Type 4 Grind.
This particular Web Cam grind is a stop larger than the stock FI Grind. It will NOT work with stock FI, you'll need dual carbs or an aftermarket FI. But this cam is fantastic with Automatic Transmissions!
This is a nice upgrade on stockish engines, it's an outstanding bus cam! HD Springs are required! This cam works best with Compression from 8-8.3:1. Power band is from 1000-4500. from the Aircooled . net Vendor site. Thoughts anyone?

Yeah. My username is Amskeptic for a reason. I bring to the table here sixteen years of trying my damndest to run interference for people who get stuck in the snare of ad-speak hawgwash spewed by people who sit at a desk.

The automatic transmission is in especially dire need of a good vacuum signal and solid output at idle. Auto buses are under the torque converter load at idle. For automatic transmissions that use a vacuum modulator, if you have lousy vacuum signal, the shifts are brutal because the trans misinterprets the low vacuum signal as full throttle.

The later transmissions, as-if-not-more importantly, use the throttle linkage to determine your kick-down. It is a very specific adjustable spring-loaded arrangement at the throttle lever.

Air-Cooled.Net has sold its soul for a hyped marketing (a common thing in the air-cooled industry as we collapse) of every last piece of crap they can get their hands on. Ask me about the used "race-ready" connecting rods, the shitty lower cylinder tins, the cheap-ass Brazilian pressure plate, the EMPI chromy trash flywheel dowels . . .

Now, I know I sound like a crank, but it is because I have been blessed with decades of superb stock performance all across the country year after year, and I VISIT people whose heartache tears me up as they find their engines won't run properly, and whose driveability has ruined the pleasure of driving especially for spouses pressed into relief driving duties. I only ask that you get *assurances* from your vendors that they are *aware* of your concerns and that their promises are on-record!

Stock
..................... Intake .. Exhaust
Valve Lash (Inch): HYD HYD
Valve Lift (Inch): 0.333 0.313
Valve Lift (mm): 8.46 7.95
Advertised Duration: 224° 230°
Duration @ 0.050": 196° 196°
Lobe Center: 108° 108°

Intake Opens -10° BTDC
Intake Closes 26° ABDC

Exhaust Opens 26° BBDC
Exhaust Closes -10° ATDC
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 121,400 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 92,435 miles

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Bleyseng
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by Bleyseng » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:25 pm

wild man smith wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:48 pm
Web Cam Type 4 "Hydraulic" Camshaft, 91 Grind, (265 Duration, .430" Lift), 00-422 is designed for Type 4 engines
This particular Web Cam grind is a stop larger than the stock FI Grind. It will NOT work with stock FI, you'll need dual carbs or an aftermarket FI. But this cam is fantastic with Automatic Transmissions!
This is a nice upgrade on stockish engines, it's an outstanding bus cam! HD Springs are required! This cam works best with Compression from 8-8.3:1. Power band is from 1000-4500. from the Aircooled . net Vendor site. Thoughts anyone?
I'm with Colin on this as it runs best with 8-8.3 to 1 CR? In a bus? Ah, that is hard to believe that it won't run Hot and that valve overlap reducing the vacuum at idle with be a problem. Dump the hydro lifters for solids and get a Webcam 142 which is a stock cam that works great with FI or dual carbs.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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tommu
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by tommu » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:58 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:59 pm

Air-Cooled.Net has sold its soul for a hyped marketing (a common thing in the air-cooled industry as we collapse) of every last piece of crap they can get their hands on. Ask me about the used "race-ready" connecting rods, the shitty lower cylinder tins, the cheap-ass Brazilian pressure plate, the EMPI chromy trash flywheel dowels . . .
This. They sell "Economy Lightened Flywheel, 13lb, 8 Doweled" which to the uninitiated sounds like a great idea, especially as it's a "one of Aircooled.Net's top "Bolt On" Upgrades!". But it has not been balanced, even to factory specifcations. After installing it I couldn't take the engine over 3000RPM without experiencing dangerous vibrations. I also purchased a pair of solex PDSIT carbs which should have been jetted for my car but simply weren't. They eventually went back with a manufacturing fault but they also were very far from 'bolt-on'. To be clear - I chose to buy these items and I could have done much more research to understand that neither would answer my needs. The fact is that no-where on arcooled.net does it say 'get things working well, stock, as it came from the factory before trying to upgrade'. If you do then once you do use their top "Bolt On" Upgrades you will be able to gauge the compromise you just made.

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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by wild man smith » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:23 pm

Ordered a stock grind cam, you fellows have convinced me with your experience. 1 more bolt, and the block will be on a dolly, ready to roll into the garage!. Working between the raindrops here in the Lovely Portland metro area.

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wcfvw69
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by wcfvw69 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:35 pm

There's many, many decades of hardcore VW advice and experience being presented to you. Glad you listened. I'm another "purist" who's VW's have EVERY single stock part on the engines that they came with when new. The carbs, fuel pumps, generators, distributors have all been restored. The original heads have been rebuilt. I use the stock grind cams. With all these original, restored German parts in place, I was rewarded with wonderful running engines. Excellent driveability and most importantly, reliability where I don't worry about a break down.

As Colin sees in person and us others see in daily posts on this site and other VW forums, people get punished when buying the cheap, Chinese junk or latest "upgrade" POS part some vendor is peddling. My money is on the smart Germans who designed and built these original parts and the combinations of cam, carb/s, distributors and compression. They were a hell of a lot smarter than a VW parts seller who "swears" it will work great.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Amskeptic
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:36 pm

wild man smith wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:23 pm
Ordered a stock grind cam, you fellows have convinced me with your experience. 1 more bolt, and the block will be on a dolly, ready to roll into the garage!. Working between the raindrops here in the Lovely Portland metro area.
Keep the questions coming.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 121,400 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 92,435 miles

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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by wild man smith » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:53 pm

Thank all for your replies! I have the case apart, went real smooth, got ALL the bolts out! Sourced a new cam plug @ halsey yesterday, Mike @ the counter has been really helpful. Glad I kept clean oil in this one, even when she did not perform her best. Going to need 2 gaskets, one for the oil filter mount to block , the other for the oil fill pipe to block. Any sources would be appreciated, or the proper type of gasket material to fab my own. We had to make a lot of gaskets in Alaska when I was a line mechanic there, shipping was costly and time consuming. Going to spend some time cleaning the case halves, checking the threads on the studs. I purchased a tube of Curil sealer, is this best, or do you all have a better choice?. will the Curil work on the cam plug? It has a raised round area which will fit into the case groove. Need to mike the mains journals. Have some 10W30 break in oil, the Baxters Parts on Sandy has a bunch of Classic car/ Hot Rod stuff . High Zink content for the oldies, tube of assembly lube, will have camshaft lube included with the new camshaft, Went with Webcam new in the stock grind. Case is set up for Hydraulic lifters, just the one pressure regulator valve near the pully end. Would a new stock spring be a good idea, I think so. No telling what previous builder may have done since 40 odd years ago. Is the O Ring on the oil pickup tube included in the full gasket set, I have kept the "extras" over the years of keeping her running. Any preference on 94 mm piston rings? Chrome, What brand, etc. Thanks in advance, Mike

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Bleyseng
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Re: 2.0 liter Engine Build

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:17 pm

Hastings rings are darn good and not chrome
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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