Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Moderators: Amskeptic, Sluggo

User avatar
Bleyseng
IAC Addict!
Location: Seattle again
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:28 am

asiab3 wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: [we interrupt this program for the following Type 4 Control Valve bulletin . . .
Type 4 control valves were NOT used in hydraulic lifter engines for the simple reason that the lifters happily utilized cold oil pressure to pump themselves up if and as necessary. Hydraulic lifters are continually bleeding themselves in operation at every down ramp off the cam lobes. I speculate that if you revert to solid lifters in a hydraulic non-control valve crankcase, the relief valve might spend too much time towards the bottom of its bore, playing "high rpm control valve", diverting oil that should be making a dedicated loop through the oil cooler]
I read on the internet, so it must be true, that Jake Raby only uses solid lifters in his T4 builds. :blackeye: Does anyone know his thoughts on the cases which lack control valves? Has anyone seen if his engines have the valves or not?

Robbie
IIRC Jake usually puts a steel rod in the control relief so it keeps as much oil in the mains. 75-76 914 cases have no oil control valves either and if you do the oil notch in the rods I would think this is a good thing as you need as much oil as you can get to the crank/rods with the rods spraying the bottom of the pistons/cylinders for cooling and oiling. On cases he has preferred the "W" and "EA" cases in the past as they are stronger with more meat in key areas so the mains don't pound out nor do the cylinder registers collapse.
He only will use solid lifters as the provide the best longitivtiy and hp vs hydraulics.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

User avatar
dingo
IAC Addict!
Location: oregon - calif
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by dingo » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:42 am

So with oil-pressure guage attached..how does one verify that oil-pressure relief gizmos are functioning ??
'71 Kombi, 1600 dp

';78 Tranzporter 2L

" Fill what's empty, empty what's full, and scratch where it itches."

Jivermo
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Jivermo » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:59 am

Man, this thread has some legs. Colin will be in South Florida this week (I think), and should be messing about with possibly two new Headflow Adrian builds. Just stay tuned.

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by asiab3 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:27 am

dingo wrote:So with oil-pressure guage attached..how does one verify that oil-pressure relief gizmos are functioning ??
From my observations, you won't be able to tell when the relief piston has changed position. On a semi-cold idling engine, at lets say, 30psi, you can slowly accelerate and watch the pressure cap at around 50-60psi. This is the control valve opening and allowing excess pressure to drain back into the case. This happens (regardless of temperature) around that pressure on my gauge. (This means it can happen at low speeds with cold oil or high speeds with warm oil. My hot oil never gets that high in pressure.) How do you feel yours compares?
1969 bus, "Buddy."
142k miles with me.
319k miles on Earth.

User avatar
dingo
IAC Addict!
Location: oregon - calif
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by dingo » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:46 pm

I dunno..dont have much driving data. All i know is that these german cases are old and the oil relief bores are grungy and out of shape. I clean as best i can, grease it up and shove it all back. I read the entire thread and the esoterica of oil-pressure is intrigueing but the reality is that at some point you have to get on the road without being at the mercy of some janky 50 nyr old spring
'71 Kombi, 1600 dp

';78 Tranzporter 2L

" Fill what's empty, empty what's full, and scratch where it itches."

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by asiab3 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:33 pm

dingo wrote:…the reality is that at some point you have to get on the road without being at the mercy of some janky 50 year old spring
What reality are you living in? In my reality, I put explicit faith in 50-year-old parts. If they've gone this long, they'll work just fine for my grandkids' grandkids. As long as the springs measure up to the specification for your case setup, there is NO reason not to trust them.

I think about my oil cooler, date stamped 1971… I think of my valve seats on cylinder heads that I pulled from a crate full of dirt and bug parts… I think of my crank that I dusted off of a machinists floor… I trust them all FAR more than any new parts.

So, in a way, I AM at the mercy of the parts.

And that's ok.
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
142k miles with me.
319k miles on Earth.

User avatar
dingo
IAC Addict!
Location: oregon - calif
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by dingo » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:21 am

In some cases, thats a very valid point...then theres the bucket full of german 34picts...none of which will idle
'71 Kombi, 1600 dp

';78 Tranzporter 2L

" Fill what's empty, empty what's full, and scratch where it itches."

User avatar
wcfvw69
Old School!
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by wcfvw69 » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:51 am

asiab3 wrote:
dingo wrote:…the reality is that at some point you have to get on the road without being at the mercy of some janky 50 year old spring
What reality are you living in? In my reality, I put explicit faith in 50-year-old parts. If they've gone this long, they'll work just fine for my grandkids' grandkids. As long as the springs measure up to the specification for your case setup, there is NO reason not to trust them.

I think about my oil cooler, date stamped 1971… I think of my valve seats on cylinder heads that I pulled from a crate full of dirt and bug parts… I think of my crank that I dusted off of a machinists floor… I trust them all FAR more than any new parts.

So, in a way, I AM at the mercy of the parts.

And that's ok.
Robbie
Robbie,

I wish I'd learned as quickly as you have that the original, German made VW parts are SSOO much better than most new parts sold today. So many people on this site and on The Samba see "new" parts in shiny packages and get fooled into thinking "new" is better than old. We only have to look at Volksbiz's thriving business in refurbishing original German Solex carbs as a great illustration. I'd take his refurbed carbs over ANY POS currently being made and sold today. My 69 bug engine is running ALL it's original VW parts. I've refurbished the original distributor, generator, carb and it has an NOS Pierburg pump. The internals are all original, refreshed VW parts. It purrs like a kitten and I'm sure it will continue to do so long after I'm gone.

I've been "enjoying" beating out my original, thick metal front bumper on my bus for the past several days. I have over 15 hours in it. It had taken a solid impact in it's life and was horrifically repaired. I've had to dolly it, shrink it, reshape it, de-rust it and it's finally at the stage of laying some epoxy primer on it to start the painting process. Would I have loved to buy a "new" bumper and save all those hours? Hell yea but.. I didn't want a flimsy, thin metal, poor fitting POS going back on the bus..

We should all be grateful for the hoarders and remaining VW salvage yards for our ability to still buy original VW parts to refurbish that fit, last and support our VWs.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

kreemoweet
Getting Hooked!
Location: Seattle
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by kreemoweet » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:28 am

asiab3 wrote: I believe the grooved piston AND dual relief setup would begin to show low pressure at hot idle
I do not understand how this conclusion was reached. The groove in the relief plunger, in a dual relief case, really has no function at all, since it
was meant to work with the upper "dump" port in the relief valve bore that does not exist in dual-relief cases. However, since the grooved plunger is
significantly longer than the stock plunger, using one would pretty much have exactly the same effect as using a much stronger relief spring. AFAICT, most
vendors who include, inappropriately, a grooved plunger in their kits also provide a spring for it that is, at least approximately, intended for use with the
plain plunger in a dual relief case. The stock relief plunger in a d.r. case doesn't even begin to move until the oil pressure is well over 40 psi. Substituting
a grooved plunger will of course raise that figure quite a bit. Thus, regardless of temperature, the relief valve in a d.r. case does pretty much nothing, with or
without a groove in the plunger, at normal or low oil pressures.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:09 pm

Bleyseng wrote:Jake usually puts a steel rod in the control relief so it keeps as much oil in the mains.

Control relief is right lifter gallery. Mains wouldn't know the difference.

75-76 914 cases have no oil control valves either and if you do the oil notch in the rods I would think this is a good thing as you need as much oil as you can get to the crank/rods with the rods spraying the bottom of the pistons/cylinders for cooling and oiling.

On cases he has preferred the "W" and "EA" cases in the past as they are stronger with more meat in key areas so the mains don't pound out nor do the cylinder registers collapse.
He only will use solid lifters as the provide the best longitivtiy and hp vs hydraulics.
Do you have any documentation as to this "more meat"? The only modification in the case that I know of is the recirculation port from the relief over to the pump inlet. There is no indication I know of of meat to prevent "cylinder register collapse".
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

Hobug
Getting Hooked!
Location: Bishop GA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Hobug » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:37 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:Jake usually puts a steel rod in the control relief so it keeps as much oil in the mains.

Control relief is right lifter gallery. Mains wouldn't know the difference.

75-76 914 cases have no oil control valves either and if you do the oil notch in the rods I would think this is a good thing as you need as much oil as you can get to the crank/rods with the rods spraying the bottom of the pistons/cylinders for cooling and oiling.

On cases he has preferred the "W" and "EA" cases in the past as they are stronger with more meat in key areas so the mains don't pound out nor do the cylinder registers collapse.
He only will use solid lifters as the provide the best longitivtiy and hp vs hydraulics.
Do you have any documentation as to this "more meat"? The only modification in the case that I know of is the recirculation port from the relief over to the pump inlet. There is no indication I know of of meat to prevent "cylinder register collapse".
When I started on my engine, Jake told me to use the 1.7 case rather than the 2.0 case due to the 1.7 having more metal in the area of piston #3. Later cases don't have this. We compared my 2.0 to the 1.7 and I could see the difference.
76 Westy
69 Squareback (auto)
63 Bug
73 Thing (Type 4 powered)

Jivermo
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Jivermo » Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:54 pm

That is a pretty interesting observation.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:42 pm

dingo wrote:In some cases, thats a very valid point...then theres the bucket full of german 34picts...none of which will idle
I will get them all to idle.
ColinWillTOO
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:47 pm

Hobug wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:Jake usually puts a steel rod in the control relief so it keeps as much oil in the mains.

Control relief is right lifter gallery. Mains wouldn't know the difference.

75-76 914 cases have no oil control valves either and if you do the oil notch in the rods I would think this is a good thing as you need as much oil as you can get to the crank/rods with the rods spraying the bottom of the pistons/cylinders for cooling and oiling.

On cases he has preferred the "W" and "EA" cases in the past as they are stronger with more meat in key areas so the mains don't pound out nor do the cylinder registers collapse.
He only will use solid lifters as the provide the best longitivtiy and hp vs hydraulics.
Do you have any documentation as to this "more meat"? The only modification in the case that I know of is the recirculation port from the relief over to the pump inlet. There is no indication I know of of meat to prevent "cylinder register collapse".
When I started on my engine, Jake told me to use the 1.7 case rather than the 2.0 case due to the 1.7 having more metal in the area of piston #3. Later cases don't have this. We compared my 2.0 to the 1.7 and I could see the difference.
Now that is in opposition to Bleyseng's observations. Can you be more specific? As far as I know, the Type 4 castings are pretty much identical, save for that excellent improved oil dump passage, but the *machining* to clearance the 71mm stroke might very well make for a skinnier cross-section across the rod throw areas.

Type 1 cases did indeed have added metal to '73+ cases at the #3 spigot to reduce cracking. Later, the Mexican / Brazilian cases got rid of that same metal because of improvements in metallurgy.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

User avatar
Bleyseng
IAC Addict!
Location: Seattle again
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:25 am

No, the early cases are the stronger ones. Years ago there was a thread where cases were cut to show the differences.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

Post Reply