Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

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Amskeptic
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Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:05 pm

This is going to be nutso, but I am going to do the same thing I did with the Road Warrior in 2007 where I take a picture with that very same Timex alarm clock every hour.

Thursday:
engine out.
exhaust, intake, ignition off
fan, flaps, fan housing vanes, cylinder cover tins, off and very carefully checked.
heads off.
all valves removed with guide wear check.
all valve seats very carefully checked for any movement
all exhaust valves measured for stem diameter, overall length, seat contact width.

If Heads Check Out, I have four new exhaust valves going in.
If Heads Do Not Check Out, I must clean and check the used heads and put the new exhaust valves in them.

Friday
Reassemble engine.

Saturday
Itinerant Air-Cooled day with James Dwan

Then I have to haul to Atlanta for Thanksgiving.
No overheating heads, we have to get in the highway groove, TBRRD.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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jimbear
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by jimbear » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:19 pm

Thanks for giving. Enjoy the relative warmth when you DO make it to Atlanta.

Excuse me as I wax poetic...

haiku

zen meditation
dub love bus
skill and luck ensure

something organic
one point six
quick out and back in

:joker:

the people wagon
transporter
sleek simple consort
'74 Hardtop Westy
Pretty much stock engine setup

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ruckman101
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:43 pm

jimbear wrote:Thanks for giving. Enjoy the relative warmth when you DO make it to Atlanta.

Excuse me as I wax poetic...

haiku

zen meditation
dub love bus
skill and luck ensure

something organic
one point six
quick out and back in

:joker:

the people wagon
transporter
sleek simple consort

Now just stop that sailor jimbear. Makes me flash artistic fuzzy flush. Woof.

May the work flow smooth Colin.


neal
The slipper has no teeth.

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hambone
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by hambone » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:01 pm

all valves removed with guide wear check.
all valve seats very carefully checked for any movement
all exhaust valves measured for stem diameter, overall length, seat contact width.
How do you know how to do all that? Amazing.

You don't think you can make 250 miles? Although I am a sucker for doing a job in the best conditions possible. I know how you like to field strip rifles in swamps.
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

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Amskeptic
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:26 am

hambone wrote: You don't think you can make 250 miles? Although I am a sucker for doing a job in the best conditions possible. I know how you like to field strip rifles in swamps.
There are some things you just don't want to gamble with. Why would you? Why would I want to try "to see if I can make it" the nine hundred twelve miles remaining to Atlanta? (This is not the Road Warrior where I knew the Manley stainless steel valves personally. I have no idea what valves are in this car, but I do know that junk abounds. The instant that some little exhaust valve should let go on the side of the interstate, the engine would be junk (it already has one case repair!). I have never blown an engine in my life, and I do not plan to. What would *you* do if every single of the five valve adjustments you did in the past 3,000 miles had a loss of .002"-.006" on one specific valve? I don't know how this valve has moved so far.

James Dwan may take issue with his garage being called a swamp ... :pirate:
Image
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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hambone
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by hambone » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:47 pm

That is a big loss. Yep ya gotta do it. At least you're not alone at some abandoned diner.
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

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Sylvester
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by Sylvester » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:41 pm

Amskeptic wrote:What would *you* do if every single of the five valve adjustments you did in the past 3,000 miles had a loss of .002"-.006" on one specific valve? I don't know how this valve has moved so far.
I have a hard time imagining a valve stretching. The question is, what happens eventually to a stretched valve? More often than not, does it break and send the valve into the piston? Or does it more often stretch until it hits the piston? At what point do you stop adjusting a stretched valve and save the engine?
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue, I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace. Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod, The high untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

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sped372
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by sped372 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:53 pm

Sylvester wrote:does it break and send the valve into the piston?
That is a very real po$$ibility.
Sylvester wrote:At what point do you stop adjusting a stretched valve and save the engine?
It all depends on your tolerance for gambling? I found myself with the same symptoms... continually tightening valves and it was engine pullski for me. I was sick of driving scared.
Image

I think TBRRD's engine has reached the end of it's grace period and it's time for some investigatory surgery.
1971 Karmann Ghia - 1600 DP
1984 Westfalia - 1.9 WBX

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Westy78
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by Westy78 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:11 pm

Sylvester wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:What would *you* do if every single of the five valve adjustments you did in the past 3,000 miles had a loss of .002"-.006" on one specific valve? I don't know how this valve has moved so far.
I have a hard time imagining a valve stretching. The question is, what happens eventually to a stretched valve? More often than not, does it break and send the valve into the piston? Or does it more often stretch until it hits the piston? At what point do you stop adjusting a stretched valve and save the engine?

Usually it stretches until the head of the valve breaks off and does a nasty dance with the piston. Been there, done that with my first bus. It makes one hell of a racket bouncing around in the combustion chamber. If you're lucky that's where it stays and doesn't take out the whole engine with it. I would say if you see a trend of three or four adjustments tightening up on a particular valve/s it's time to do some exploratory investigation.
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by Lanval » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:52 am

Some music, then, for the long day ahead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBu2SyvSBhE

A reminder of what was, and what has always been, and will always be.

Michael L

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Sylvester
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by Sylvester » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:19 am

Lanval wrote:Some music, then, for the long day ahead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBu2SyvSBhE

A reminder of what was, and what has always been, and will always be.

Michael L
I liked it. Colin, has the tear-down begun?
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue, I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace. Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod, The high untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

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airkooledchris
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by airkooledchris » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:57 pm

ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

hope all is going well thus far.
1979 California Transporter

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vwlover77
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by vwlover77 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:54 pm

voltttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
amppppppppppppppppppppppppp

Sorry, couldn't resist! :geek:

Colin, you're killing us here! We need data!

I second the hope that all is going well.
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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SlowLane
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Re: Emergency Engine Teardown Thread

Post by SlowLane » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:06 am

vwlover77 wrote:voltttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
amppppppppppppppppppppppppp
Watt's that? Currently there's a potential here for abuse of power. Those who resist the charge must do so with perfect conduct. :geek: :geek:
vwlover77 wrote: I second the hope that all is going well.
x3
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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Amskeptic
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PART ONE

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:41 pm

(PART ONE: 0-16 Hours)

Arrived at James Dwan's house on Thursday morning to save my engine from the impending disaster as intimated by CHT readings in the 420s under load, and more threateningly still, the rapidly decreasing valve clearances. This whole symptomology was taking the fun out of driving, and all the experimentation with jetting and timing and little deflectors had had barely any effect. Air-cooled VWs are supposed to be tough, and this little princess was being a prissy pill. I categorically refuse to cater to little miss princesses, not when there is some serious driving to be done.

At 8:45AM, I backed the bus into the garage halfway:
TX ER 00
Image

At 9:45AM, the engine was out.
TX ER 01
Image

At 10:52AM, the fan housing was off.
TX ER 02a
Image

Fan housing was disassembled and flaps removed. The flaps were straightened and twisted on their shafts to provide perfect synchronization from opened to closed.
TX ER 02b
Image

(and the generator's commutator was again polished upto prevent yet another emergence of that sparking nonsense)
TX ER 02c
Image

Flaps closed (note that some air is allowed to properly heat up the thermostat so it will open).
TX ER 02d
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Flaps open.
TX ER 02e
Image

At 11:50AM, I had no definitive answer yet as to why this engine was running hot. I was also getting irritated at the notion that stupid little things like bent flaps could possibly have such an effect.
TX ER 03a
Image

Maybe I will find dead bats under the cylinder covers. Here I am using a trick to get to the stupid 10mm nut on the inside of the intake curve.
TX ER 03b
Image

Down to the long block, everything is clean (except for the case parting line leak next to the repaired oil cooler). I admire this engineering. I have known too many filthy VW engines neglected half to death running cool and happy. This clean and carefully built engine has some other problem that I must find.
TX ER 03c
Image

Entering the fourth hour, I am mindful to keep this organized ... but what is ailing my engine???
TX ER 04a
Image

Here you can see the resultant valve adjustment screw migrations that have been driving me nuts.I had looked at those exhaust screws sticking way out and could only think that I did not want to drive this car blithely down the highway, ignoring this unmistakeable message of impending disaster, is that valve stretch???
TX ER 04b
Image

Five hours and ten minutes into it, both heads are off. Answers are coming up, that is what can motivate me to extreme tests of endurance, good ol' curiosity ...
TX ER 05a
Image

Well, here is #3 exhaust. Sure looks recessed, doesn't it?
TX ER 04d
Image

Good grief, so does #4 exhaust.
TX ER 04e
Image


38 minutes later, all the exhaust valves are out. I have one of the used heads I picked up for $80.00/pr when I passed through Yuma as a comparison.
TX ER 05b
Image

Very strange. The contact surface on the TBRRD's #3 exhaust is right at the margin, the very outside edge. The color of the valve also suggests serious heat. Meanwhile, the filthy dirty muddy caked-on grease clogged fin used head's #3 looks nifty with its contact surface a healthy distance from the edge or margin.
TX ER 05c
Image

Here is the TBRRD's #4 exhaust seat outline in fine red. Look at how far down the contact surface is. What is going here?
TX ER 05d
Image


Here is the #4 exhaust valve with the same contact surface way too far down towards the edge.
TX ER 05e
Image

But #3 takes the cake. I have never seen this. Look at the amazing destruction of the seat. I pencilled in a little red profile to show you how deeply the valve had migrated into the seat's metal. The 45* contact area has eroded downwards several millimeters.
TX ER 05f
Image

For comparison, see how the used head's contact areas are simply spiffy?
TX ER 05g
Image

Three angle grind with a correctly narrowed seat contact area ... good ol' old.
TX ER 05h
Image

And here is the reason that this poor bus has been suffering so. The machinist who did the heads for Bookwus installed the wrong size valves. It may seem subtle to the neophyte, but there is *no way* a machinist could possible miss this. The instant he stuck this fuel-injected Beetle 31mm valve in would have shown a contact area too close to the margin of the valve.
TX ER 05i
Image


Here are the two used 32mm exhaust valves from the used Yuma heads on either side of the TBRRD's 31mm exhaust valve. Imagine the scenario here. You have blistering hot exhaust valves (1,000* in the middle) that are too small for the hole. The very edges of the valves have to transfer the heat to the seats. The very edges of the valves already have too much heat being blasted by exhaust gas on the fronts and the backs of the edges. My scenario with this engine is that these too small exhaust valves were running red-to-orange hot halos under load, and this concentrated heat was then conducting over to the plug thread area and scaring me with those 430* CHT readings. Everything else in the engine was cool and nice. Concentrated catastrophe in the making. Thankfully, they were TRW valves. None the less, these heads were ruined by a dumb mistake.
TX ER 05j
Image

Let's review. Here is the incorrect fuel injected Beetle valve sitting so low in the head.
TX ER 05k
Image

Here is the Yuma valve visiting the TBRRD exhaust seat. Sitting up nice and pretty, huh? Unfortunately, the seat underneath is almost a millimeter too low now. Heads that came with the TBRRD are no longer useable.
TX ER 05l
Image

So, I had to try to refinish these used Yuma heads with another serious round of Itinerant Razorhands desperately wondering if he is killing his last chance to get to Atlanta for Thanksgiving.
This is an hour of round and round with a razor blade trying to do a flycut by eye, to tame the grooves dug in at 10-2 on the top and 4-8 on the bottom of the cylinder spigots (these Yuma head had run with loose cylinders)
TX ER 07a
Image

And another hour of round and round, and a wild spell of drilling madly, blindly, through the caked mud in the fins around the exhaust ports. It is a well-ventilated head now.
TX ER 08a
Image

At the nine hour mark, a dollop of hacksaw blade cleaning through the ground-in dirt in between the fins, and a finger driven valve lap job followed by a fierce scrub in the kitchen sink.
TX ER 09a
Image

Two hours later, the host of this party has shown up. I greet him with a spray of snot and sneezing, this cold is ripping me up with swollen sinuses fatigue and irritated fatigue. He has a '77 bus that won't move under its own power. I cannot think of such things right now.
TX ER 11b
Image

At the 12 hour 45 minute mark, I find a little oil slick? The jack has slowly settled and allowed oil to drain from the #1 exhaust lifter bore. The 3/4 (left side) used Yuma head is done... now I have to do the same razor blade flycut + finger valve lap job thing with the 1/2 (right) used Yuma head.
TX ER 12a
Image

13 hours mark, I am beheading a bolt to turn it into an exhaust stud.
TX ER 13a
Image

The other side of the head had a wallowed out hole. I drilled it out ...
TX ER 13b
Image


and tapped for a 10mm/8mm step stud that I luckily found in my bag of spare bolts as the 14th hour rolled by.
TX ER 14a
Image

Double-nutted it ...
TX ER 14b
Image

... and drove into the head with the outside nut.
TX ER 14c
Image

... to the same depth as its mate.
TX ER 14d
Image

At the 15th hour of exhausting details and adversarial gravity and a nasty cold, I looked at all the grease and caked-in dirt of the head not yet touched, and remembered the hours of razor-blading in circles and fiddling valve keepers and spring retainers and lapping of the head I just finished, and I sighed ... no, I sneezed huge strings of mucous. I am just starting the merrygoround of razor-blading here ... sort of like the first ten headliner dots.
TX ER 15
Image

Fortunately, this head wasn't too bad, so I was able to knock off at about 1:00AM.

END OF PART ONE
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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