Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:57 pm

tommu wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:39 pm

Wondering if this was an existing issue for the previous owner of this engine:

Image

Do you *see* oil / evidence of oil all over the place in there? I can't see anything but that the gallery plugs look different than the ones in your build. Yours are dark (steel?) and these here are shiny (aluminum or cheesy shiny whatever?)
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 121,400 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 92,435 miles

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tommu
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by tommu » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:21 pm

The plug was torqued to between 8 and 9 ft lb. I tightened it to 14 ft lb, it didn't feel like it had any further to go. I was sure that the additional 5 ft lbs would seal the gallery.

I used Loctite again. I will move onto JB Weld now. This is the state of the threads in the gallery after an hour or so of careful cleaning:

Image
Image

I do see imperfections on one or two of the threads, but overall it does look serviceable. I used a magnifying glass and couldn't see any cracks.

And do you see that passage? It does not look inconsequential.

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by tommu » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:52 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:57 pm
tommu wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:39 pm

Wondering if this was an existing issue for the previous owner of this engine:

Image

Do you *see* oil / evidence of oil all over the place in there? I can't see anything but that the gallery plugs look different than the ones in your build. Yours are dark (steel?) and these here are shiny (aluminum or cheesy shiny whatever?)
Colin
These were sprayed cheesy silver by the PO so don’t read anything into the colour. I do see an accumulation of oil below the the same plug I’m having issues with but agree it does not look terrible.

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:36 am

tommu wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:21 pm
The plug was torqued to between 8 and 9 ft lb. I tightened it to 14 ft lb, it didn't feel like it had any further to go. I was sure that the additional 5 ft lbs would seal the gallery.

I used Loctite again. I will move onto JB Weld now. This is the state of the threads in the gallery after an hour or so of careful cleaning:

That looks like a consequential passage . . .


The threads look like hell. I see what looks like chewed up threads at the entrance, am I wrong? Also, near the Consequential Passage I see what looks like a crushed thread "hill".

Clean clean clean, expert mix of properly proportioned slow set (not quick-set!) JB Weld, allow to cure then do surface treatment.

For the record, if you have to go back in, JB Weld does release under persuasion.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 121,400 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 92,435 miles

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by white74westy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:44 pm

Hi tommu,

Just wondering if you have made any progress?

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:15 pm

white74westy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:44 pm
Hi tommu,

Just wondering if you have made any progress?

Indeed he has. Tommu?
ColinCold@$!*^% Here InFlorida
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 121,400 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 92,435 miles

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by white74westy » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:42 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:15 pm
white74westy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:44 pm
Hi tommu,

Just wondering if you have made any progress?

Indeed he has. Tommu?
ColinCold@$!*^% Here InFlorida
I look forward to hearing about it!

Colin, as you may remember, I have a little leak from the same area. I suspect I share the same “engine builder” that Tom does, and wonder if their is a correlation. I understand that I won’t know anything for sure, until I drop and split the drivetrain, but I am keeping an eye out for all potential problems.

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:19 am

white74westy wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:42 am
I suspect I share the same “engine builder” that Tom does,
You don't. That's the thing.
"Issues" are cropping up more ubiquitously each passing year. We all have to step up and either do the work ourselves, or follow/ride each step of the farmed-out process, being as informed as possible.

IF you, Alexis, have a genuine SABO front main seal, then maybe you do focus on gallery plugs (we remember Jivermo's HFM ripped-out gallery plug). If you have a typical orange Victor Reinz seal, well, those don't do a very good job these days.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 121,400 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 92,435 miles

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tommu
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by tommu » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:57 pm

An update is owed

The symptom of the recent problem was an interminable leak the middle oil gallery in front of the case. I had torqued this threaded plug well and used Loctite 565 initially - but oil poured from it. After dropping the engine again and torquing to 15 ft lb (And feeling that the plug was very well seated) - it leaked again. What's worse is that it was now bottoming out and thus surely blocking the oil drilling to camshaft.

I JB welded both the far left and far right plugs. But the middle plug was a problem. How was I to seal this while allowing oil flow to the cam? In discussion with Colin he suggested marking the location of the problematic cam oil drilling on the outside of the case. Then snugging the threaded plug down in it's thread and marking the location of the oil channel on the plug face itself. Now marking another line 30 degrees anti-clockwise and grinding a notch into the end threaded gallery plug. 30 degrees should then be enough to torque the JB Weld slathered plug to at least 14 ft lb. It is a great idea, but infuriatingly hard to do when the threads are failing incrementally. Even grinding a plug down and then grinding a notch didn't work. I had no thread left to compress. So I used : X-Pando

So when that was sealed I thought I'd check end-play - just to be sure everything is still good. It had opened up 7 thousands from 003 to 010. Frowny Face. I took off the flywheel, checked that the o-ring was there, removed the seal, shims and saw:

Image

That is a finely polished crescent on the face of the thrust surface. Only part of the way around the bearing, with what I would call a small divot (marked in yellow). The shim facing the bearing showed wear but the wear could not be felt when running a finger nail over it.

Why is it marked only on a portion of the bearing? Good question. Most scenarios cannot explain it. A bent shim, out of true flywheel, dirt etc would wear the whole surface - not part of it. The one thing we could think was that the bearing itself was at fault. It is a good hypothesis as oversize Silverline bearings only come with oversized thrust and must be cut down. I stripped the engine back down to a long block and dropped it back at EMS for inspection. They measured everything, and couldn't see an issue with the bearing itself or anything else. They gave me the long block back with flywheel installed - a new seal, shimmed and end gap set.

So now I'm building myself an engine run stand. I need to be able run the engine, inspect for leaks and check endplay in a controlled environment. I'm using an adapter from http://www.zalexindustries.com and right now we're trying to make it work with the extra throw of the starter in a 091 transmission. Tom is being incredibly attentive here.

I will update when I make more progress. I am finding my motivation slowing on this, I'm fighting the feeling that this engine is destined not to run.

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:21 am

tommu wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:57 pm
A) I need to be able run the engine, inspect for leaks and check endplay in a controlled environment.
B) Tom is being incredibly attentive here.
C) I am finding my motivation slowing on this,
I'm fighting the feeling that this engine is destined not to run.

a) Can't wait for update after the next thirty minutes of run-time.

b) Yes, he is. This will spill into all other areas of his life and make him a better more successful person.

c) oh hail no girlfriend nu unh, don't make me come over there and finish it myself . . .
I will deplete your coffee supply.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 121,400 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 92,435 miles

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by asiab3 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:23 am

An update for the public, please Tom? I knoooooooww you have one! ;)
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by tommu » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:12 am

Yes, I've been hesitating to call this done..

A little bit has happened since the last post.

While waiting for parts to be delivered for the test stand, I took a look at a leaking fan seal. But found this:

Image

The fan hub had been grinding on number 4 bearing. I assumed I’d installed the bearing the wrong way round. After some agonizing I accepted that we needed to split the case again…

Once the case was split I could see that number 4 bearing was in the right way around but was in the wrong place. After removing the crank I could see that I’d actually left out all the dowel pins.

Lesson for me here is to work from a checklist and make notes on the build. I don’t get a long period of time to work on the build which can leave to things being left half done. Which is clearly prone to error..

I built the engine back up and ran it for 30 minutes on a test stand. No leaks from the flywheel area so x-pando seems to have worked well for the gallery plug. Endplay tested to .003 so into the bus it went.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm1Y2APPvvU
(ignore the sound at the beginning of this - it’s from a ceiling fan!)

I’ve now discovered a slight oil leak - oil collecting right at the back, bottom of the engine case. I need to trace this - and I think the muffler is leaking from it’s seam too. But other than that - I’m driving!

Robbie - I could really do with a muffler donut!

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:10 am

tommu wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:12 am
I’ve now discovered a slight oil leak - oil collecting right at the back, bottom of the engine case. I need to trace this - and I think the muffler is leaking from it’s seam too. But other than that - I’m driving!

Robbie - I could really do with a muffler donut!

Hey tommu. I went up the thread and changed your "# 1" bearing to "# 4" because in fact, the bearing closest to the fan is the # 4 main bearing. So now I am curious. Is this slight oil leak at the back (muffler end) of the engine or at the front (flywheel end) of the engine?

Keep driving. Bond with your chariot.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 121,400 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 92,435 miles

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tommu
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by tommu » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:50 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:10 am
tommu wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:12 am
I’ve now discovered a slight oil leak - oil collecting right at the back, bottom of the engine case. I need to trace this - and I think the muffler is leaking from it’s seam too. But other than that - I’m driving!

Robbie - I could really do with a muffler donut!

Hey tommu. I went up the thread and changed your "# 1" bearing to "# 4" because in fact, the bearing closest to the fan is the # 4 main bearing. So now I am curious. Is this slight oil leak at the back (muffler end) of the engine or at the front (flywheel end) of the engine?

Keep driving. Bond with your chariot.
Colin
Thanks for changing that. It’s the back as in muffler end of the engine.

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From Burbank

Post by asiab3 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:48 pm

tommu wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:50 am
Thanks for changing that. It’s the back as in muffler end of the engine.
Left or right side? Pressurized leak or a slow drip?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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