TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

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SlowLane
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by SlowLane » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:00 pm

Okay taking a looooong shot here...

You're running with a doghouse fan shroud on a single-port engine. I'm assuming that Mr. Bookwus had upgraded to the doghouse cooler because of the commonly-accepted wisdom that it's the better system.

But... What if the doghouse fan shroud isn't a good match for the single port upper tins in terms of air pressure development compared to the original fan shroud? Or if the single-port upper tins lack some airflow-directing vanes that the dual-port tins incorporate? It probably doesn't need asking, but is the fan shroud a nice snug fit to the upper tins? Is it an aftermarket shroud?

I'm just making a WAG here: it's been a lot of years since I've peeked into a type 1 fan shroud.

Lyle
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
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Amskeptic
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:04 pm

SlowLane wrote:Okay taking a looooong shot here...

You're running with a doghouse fan shroud on a single-port engine. I'm assuming that Mr. Bookwus had upgraded to the doghouse cooler because of the commonly-accepted wisdom that it's the better system.

But... What if the doghouse fan shroud isn't a good match for the single port upper tins Or if the single-port upper tins lack some airflow-directing vanes that the dual-port tins incorporate?
Good solid points here, Lyle. I'll get on it. Others have upgraded their singleports to doghouse fan/shroud, and I have not heard of any complaints.
BUT ...
... if I had not put this stupid gauge on, I would have not thought it was running hot either.
Hot oil pressure is excellent!
Dipstick is easy warm!
Power is good!
Compression is good!
Vacuum only advance is 26* steady high rpm, 34* off throttle/high rpm, 2*ATDC at idle!
Main jet is currently 120, pilot 65, air correction 125
Cylinder heads inside the valve covers are silver shiny wet clean new-oil-fragrant!

The only validation of the gauge is the exhaust valve clearances have been closing up.
Dang.
Bought two nice used singleport heads today for $80.00 as back up.
Colin
:withstupid:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 111,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Westy78
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by Westy78 » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:10 pm

Out of curiosity, have you verified that the gauge is accurate? I know the valves closing up point to high heat but I have doubts of the accuracy on my Dakota Digital. Next time I change plugs I'm getting out the camp stove and testing the sender in boiling water.
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

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ruckman101
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by ruckman101 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:32 am

Did I miss something? What Brosol are you running? What did the Brosol replace?

neal
The slipper has no teeth.

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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by Lanval » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:42 pm

I seem to recall checking my DD gauge with an IR temp sensor and feeling that the delta between the two was enough to suggest the DD was on or close to on. That said:

1. I agree with Westy 78 ~ test the gauge.
2. In all the writing/hand wringing about head temps I've seen here and on the Samba over the years, I have never seen anyone provide a factory reference for temps. No one seems to have any proof as to what the temps should be. (By proof I mean from the mfgr ~ nothing else will suffice here... we need to know what the design intention was, and how it tested out in original configuration at the factory).

Colin, do we know what the standards are here, or we working in the twilight of knowledge?

Michael L

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RSorak 71Westy
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by RSorak 71Westy » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:32 am

VW never provided CHT guages and to my knowledge never published any temp limits. The temp numbers commonly used are referenced from machine shops who remove and replace the valve seats. To insert a new seat the head should be heated to 425F or so....So running at this temp it's safe to assume, theres not a of of force holding the seat in...
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.

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Amskeptic
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:09 pm

RSorak 71Westy wrote:VW never provided CHT guages and to my knowledge never published any temp limits. The temp numbers commonly used are referenced from machine shops who remove and replace the valve seats. To insert a new seat the head should be heated to 425F or so....So running at this temp it's safe to assume, theres not a of of force holding the seat in...
WESTY78:
I have been pretty confident with this Dakota Digital. At first ignition in the morning, this gauge reads the ambient temperatures with startling accuracy. This morning it said "62*" as did the real-time Intellicast forecast for Casa Grande here. I will do the boiling water test if I can find a way to get boiling water out to the engine.

LANVAL:
We have not been given any specification from the factory because, like any modern car manufacturer, the engineers make sure that their products' failure limits are outside of "reasonably expected environmental conditions". This leads to:

RSorak 71Westy:
Yes, we take our cue from machinists who actually work with the parts we are concerned about. However, a bad machinist will blame the engineering when his valve seats fall out, or he will blame the owner on whose watch the seats fell out.
I'll blame both the machinist and the owner. :flower:

The factory did not tell the owner that his air-cooled Volkswagen needs to have the fins cleaned out like you would a lawnmower, nor did the factory ever warn any owner to baby it on the freeway, "especially on hot days". A factory head is up to whatever environmental condition comes its way .... so long as the engine has been maintained.

The 425* max number suggested by Mr. Machinist misses a critical aspect:
Under no environmental circumstance ever, will you have a 425* cylinder head with a valve seat at room temperature dimensions. Never. You will only have a valve seat at the same temperature or, in the case of an exhaust valve seat, a greater temperature than the head. This means that a working 425* does not scare me with a factory head.
Question. Does the factory manual suggest chilling the seats before installing them in a 425* head? Man I sure would ... just like valve guides (which my machinist failed to do and killed my 515,000 mile original heads on the Road Warrior).
BUT:
unknown machine-shop installed seats just don't give me the security I need, unless the machinist has impeccable credentials AND is having a good day of focused careful work besides.
AND:
I do not know the behavior of VW's cylinder head aluminum alloy. My symptoms suggest that a softening of the aluminum surrounding the seats has been occurring. Once movement of the seat through the aluminum begins, then the interference fit goes to hell. If these were intake valve clearances closing up, like I see with Type 4 engines, I would be a lot more nervous already. Then the scenario unfolds like this:
you have just done a big hill climb and the head is all nice and warmed up to 440*
but when you go down the hill, the intake charge can chill the hell out of the intake seat and it lets go. Look at reported seat failures and you will see intakes represented as often as not.

NEAL:
I have the German Solex 30Pict3 that was originally on the engine currently in a box on the floor as I experiment with this Brosol 30/31Pict3. This carburetor was kindly offered to me by Elwood (thanks, Elwood!). It leaks at the press plug. It has rattly loose throttle screw. It has spring holes that are wallowed out worse than the original's 41 year old carb.
The choke plate ate into the carburetor throat because, duh, it was not supplied with the German thrust washers that prevent such things. Those washers cost $0.02 you know. So this carb either had a choke stuck on or off (Barb? any recall of a lousy choke?)
It has a completely unadjustable dead spot right off idle, it will stall at a stoplight change, but once under way no problem. I am currently experimenting with it because I hope to see if I can jack up the mixture in the power circuit before modifying the original German one's power circuit. It is cast directly into the carb, so mistakes are automatically fatal.
Colin :geek:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 111,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Amskeptic
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:56 pm

MEANWHILE:

I have been coming to the realization that everything e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g everything is slightly off with this car.

Already Dealt With:
leaking exhaust
leaking oil cooler
bad generator bearings
wrong distributor
leaking differential side seals
imbalanced flywheel/pressure plate
light switch not shutting off (wrong knobs all the way down the dash)
key jamming in lock cylinders

Still To Deal With:
front door latches do not work correctly
windshield wiper motor molasses
clutch cable binding
right ebrake cable sticking
transmission pops out of 3rd
ball joint boots torn
front shock bushings damaged
spring plate bushings worn
steering box skips
drag link boots torn
light switch rheostat overheating/intermittant
dash light path to hazard switch missing
fresh air doors leaking
every vent window leaking/two won't close properly
driver's door seal folded over at corner (has a stubborn memory now)
passenger door seal "modified" (cut away) too far > wind leak
window winder binding on left
fresh air fans don't work
sliding door latch at rear lets go over bumps
rear glass leaking
stop plate pops gearshift out of reverse
brakes pulse
rusting under belt trim
jack points rusting away under the overspray
roof paint never color-sanded!
sliding door sill rusting away under seal ...
dealt with yesterday:

First I had to break the paint away from the thoroughly painted door seal:
Image

Found that the rust was about to make holes in the car at the back of the sliding door:
Image

Used a pint of gasoline and two hours to scrape away the grease build-up in both the upper and lower tracks, then hit the rust with OneStep Rust-Catalyzing Primer:
Image

Image

Top-coated the sliding tracks while I let the rollers bathe in engine oil:
Image

Had to brush paint the inside and upper areas of the seal channel and track:
Image

All back together as the temperatures began to plummet:
Image

Not quite BobD hygienic, but better quality hardware:
Image

Some inexplicable mandate told me "you are not camping here tonight, to heck with the fresh paint on all the doors/tailgate where the seals touch. Pack up and git."
"But I want to take my desert walk."
"Leave."
So, I left, wondering if it was the fat old lazy layabout entropic inner sloth getting the upper hand. Not fifteen minutes later, barely five miles down the interstate, the wind came howling in with blasts of sand and ... rain? Rain! Leaky vent windows noted.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 111,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Elwood
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by Elwood » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:37 pm

No Colin I cannot recall a carb giving to you for parts that has been sitting in box for over 10 yrs. Too bad your having a rough time with that bus. Sure is shiny though.
'69 weekender ~ Elwood

DoubleNickle
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by DoubleNickle » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:57 pm

To read the words "everything e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g everything is wrong with this car" makes me feel really r-e-a-l-l-y really bad about our old clunker! Hang in there! Don't let it keep you from sleeping at night.... 55
1975 Riviera
1.8 FI

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Amskeptic
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:29 pm

Elwood wrote:No Colin I cannot recall a carb giving to you for parts that has been sitting in box for over 10 yrs. Too bad your having a rough time with that bus. Sure is shiny though.
rough time is spelled "f-u-n" and I am not being kinky here neither.
:blackeye: :flower:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 111,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Amskeptic
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:32 pm

DoubleNickle wrote:To read the words "everything e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g everything is wrong with this car" makes me feel really r-e-a-l-l-y really bad about our old clunker! Hang in there! Don't let it keep you from sleeping at night.... 55
Let's change the above "wrong" for "slightly off".
Do not underestimate just how much fun I have with this stuff ....
:alien:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 111,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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sped372
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by sped372 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:41 pm

Fun is a challenge met and overcome. You really get to know something when you have to dissect and reassemble it a few times. Thanks for sharing it with us.
1971 Karmann Ghia - 1600 DP
1984 Westfalia - 1.9 WBX

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ruckman101
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by ruckman101 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:07 pm

I especially enjoy tackling the cosmetics and minors, because if I am, it means the engine is running well enough I don't need to be working on it.

Thanks for the carb clarification Colin. I'll be working with a 30/31 pict 3 on the SP going into Bertha SOON! Looks like it adjusts the same as the 34 pict 3.


neal
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ruckman101
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Re: TBRRD Slowtails To Atlanta ...

Post by ruckman101 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:35 pm

I think I'll print your list of "slightly off" concerns. That way I can check off all of them as I go along and get to things. I'll save the ashtray polish/refresh for last.


neal
The slipper has no teeth.

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