VW Bus Buying Advice

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satchmo
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by satchmo » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:01 am

I bought my first bus (a 1973 nine passenger bus) for a whopping $2000 in 2003. It was nearly pristine on the interior and the exterior and everything was unmolested stock VW. Despite this, I had my hands full trying to get the engine to run reasonably, the steering to be tight, the brakes to brake, the windows not to leak and the exhaust not to backfire. Knowing nothing about the stock dual carb system, I took it to an expert to fix. No joy there, so I had to figger out myself how it all works. Turns out it was a host of wear items including: non-functioning brake booster one-way valve, leaking rubber elbows at the intake manifolds, loose exhaust manifolds, and then the icing on the cake was a non-functioning retard diaphragm on the dual vacuum dual advance distributor that the expert mechanic was apparently incapable of finding. No one tells you just how critical it is to have that 16 degrees of retarded timing working on a stock dual carb engine. No one. And this has consequences.

My point is, if you don't know from experience what you should be looking for you won't see what is really wrong (meaning lots of money involved). I know I didn't, and had to learn the hard way, driving over the Fourth of July pass on I-90, in July, with two cylinders at 110 psi, one at 80 psi and one at 0 psi. I ended up with a very long rest stop in Coeur d'Alene.

When I, with my limited experience, see a bus that looks nice, the first thing I do is open the engine bay. If I see there is no seal or gasket around the engine, I know for a fact now that the owner knows nothing of how these ACVWs work and the engine, even if it still runs, has a terminal illness and will need to be replaced very soon. If pre-heat hoses are absent, the air cleaner is removed, there is brown cooked oil under the valve covers and oil is flung all around the engine bay, that engine is dying. If the CV joint boots and ball joint boots and every other rubber component is cracked or crumbling, I know the current owner just couldn't be bothered to do routine maintenance and it will cost you a bundle beyond the purchase price. In cases like this, the owner should pay you $2000 to take it off their hands. I know I would walk away.

You might be able to find a nice bay window bus for $5000; one that starts, stops, accelerates, steers decently, doesn't overheat, and gets you from point A to B with little turmoil. I think the factor that will determine whether its a good buy or a money pit will depend on the current owner. Do they know how their car works? Did they pay attention to the important things or just cover the engine in chrome and put on an 'extractor' exhaust?

Some people don't mind shelling out peanuts to buy an iffy bus, then spending LOTS of time and money to fix previous owners' negligence. They see it as a challenge and typically do good work. For those of us with little experience in the ACVW world, we need to buy a bus that is owned by one of those folks, and pay them for their time, their efforts and their experience.

No one here can tell you from a craiglist ad what bus is a good investment and what is not. You are asking an impossible to answer question. If you don't know what to look for, you must have someone else with you who does. A pre-purchase inspection, while a good idea, won't help either: by the time you are at the PPI, you will just rationalize away all the faults the mechanic is able to find.

I wish you the best in your search.

Satchmo
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

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asiab3
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by asiab3 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:31 am

Satchmo, excellent insight, thank you.

I might add something regarding the PPI: I think a new buyer going with someone experienced just once could be great help to the new buyer for future inspections as well. Surely someone in the Boston VW clubs has restored a bus, and knows where to look for rust/body damage and general neglect/safety issues??

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:33 am

satchmo wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:01 am
*Knowing nothing about the stock dual carb system, I took it to an expert to fix.
No joy there, so I had to figger out myself how it all works.

*the icing on the cake was a non-functioning retard diaphragm on the dual vacuum dual advance distributor that the expert mechanic was apparently incapable of finding.
I hope that wasn't me ...

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/vie ... 788#p41359

satchmo wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:01 am
*No one tells you just how critical it is to have that 16 (10* -ed) degrees of retarded timing working on a stock dual carb engine. No one.
If you don't know what to look for, you must have someone else with you who does.
I wish you the best in your search.
Satchmo

Itinerant Air-Cooled has a traveling consultant (Amskeptic) available for personal visits to help you learn about your Volkswagen and promotes the notion that you are your own best mechanic.

... we can even offer a referral to Another Traveling Mechanical Consultant Known round here as asiab3 (AirSchooled.com) if your schedule requires it.
Colin

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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omacdon2
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by omacdon2 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:11 pm

Thanks so much guys. I learn so much from your answers. Just saw this one too and might check it out (with someone from the local VW club or anyone else I can find with some VW bus knowledge) https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds ... id=2234723

TrollFromDownBelow
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:14 pm

Looks solid. Same owner for the past 20 years. They will know the bus intimately. So long as you aren't worried about it being perfectly stock, and resale value, it would be worth a look see. This will be more turn key than the other red bus, and since the owner has an intimate knowledge of it, suspect he may share it, vs someone just looking to flip.
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...not leaky, and not so noisy...and she runs awesome!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
::troll2::

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satchmo
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by satchmo » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:43 pm

No, it wasn't you who was unable to find a non-functioning vacuum can.

My wording was inelegant and imprecise regarding the retarded timing, and I should be denigrated. The stock vacuum retard is 16-18 degrees resulting in a 10 degree ATDC timing at idle. See OldVolksHome data below:

Bus & Pickup 1973 * 1700 Manual Trans
Distributor: VW 021-905-205J, Bosch 0231 173 009 or 010 > 021-905-205N, 0231 181 005
Can Use: VW 021-905-205N, Bosch 0231 181 005
Points: 01 011
Condensor: 02 054
Rotor: 04 033
Note: Originally equipped with Speed Limiting Rotor 04 016 (5400rpm)
Cap: 03 010
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 113
Ignition Wires: 09 171
Spark Plug: W8CC
Timing Set At:: 10deg ATDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe, vacuum hose(s) connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 7-12deg Adv, 16-18deg Ret; Centrifugal: 9-14deg @ 2000rpm, 21-25deg @ 3400 rpm


Anyway, back to the PO's search for a decent bus, that 71 referenced above warrants a look see and a test drive. I know I would be interested just reading the ad copy and, depending on what my final goal is, it might make a nice platform to restore or use as is. Not sure you will do any better.

Go see it with a wad of cash in your pocket. If it passes your inspection and you have a good feeling about it like the owner seems to have, make him an offer. Looks like you might be able to drive it home.

Good luck,

Satchmo
Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:33 am
satchmo wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:01 am
*Knowing nothing about the stock dual carb system, I took it to an expert to fix.
No joy there, so I had to figger out myself how it all works.

*the icing on the cake was a non-functioning retard diaphragm on the dual vacuum dual advance distributor that the expert mechanic was apparently incapable of finding.
I hope that wasn't me ...
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

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omacdon2
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by omacdon2 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:14 pm

Ok I will go check out the red bus, probably after the holiday though. Do you have any pointers on how low you would negotiate if the car is what he says it is?

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satchmo
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by satchmo » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:59 pm

You're asking the wrong question. I know you want to spend as little as possible (who doesn't?), but the real question is "What is this bus worth to you?." You have looked at buses for sale for a while and you have a sense (sort of) of what seems reasonable. What do you think the entry price is for a road worthy bus (if your inspection determines it is indeed road worthy)? Offer that and see what transpires. Don't be afraid to negotiate. For me, I look for things that are potential negatives, or needed repair items, and request the seller deduct the cost of fixing these from their asking price. Things like (just examples here):

- The tires are old or worn and need to be replaced
- The tires are worn unevenly indicating an alignment is needed
- The CV boots are torn and a repack or CV replacement is needed
- The ball joint boots are torn and the ball joint will probably need to be replaced
- The shocks are bouncy and need to be replaced
- The muffler has rust though and will need to be replaced
- It's missing the original carb and air cleaner, and I value stock set ups over aftermarket stuff
- The shifter is sloppy and the bushings need to be replaced
- The transmission pops out of gear when I let off the gas and it may need a rebuild
- etc, etc

I usually quote what a shop would charge to fix each issue, knowing full well that I will be the one doing the work, and we negotiate from there. The seller may say they have already figured in the needed repairs in their asking price. If that is the case, ask them to show you how they arrived at the asking price. Go from there.

You might also find the bus is exactly what you want and you are willing to pay the asking price. If that is the case, try to sweeten the deal by having them give you extras, like mounted snow tires, original equipment they took off, spare parts, owners manual, roof rack, trailer hitch, receipts for previous repairs, a mechanic's evaluation (pre-purchase inspection), etc, etc.

You can play the country bumpkin ("Jeez, man, I really like your bus but I only have XXXX dollars. Will you take that?"), but it is dishonest and will not go very far with a conscientious owner. Like I said above, you want to find a seller who actually knows how to take care of a bus and reward them for taking care of what will soon be your bus. Don't cheap out.


Satchmo
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

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tommu
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by tommu » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:23 am

Does look interesting. I hear good things about Chico (http://steelbugin.com) engines and the seller has clearly spent some money on it. And kept original parts

This is what I would be most interested in:
rust on some lower areas of the body , and certainly ready for a small amount of bodywork but that said the underneath of the bus is Rock solid zero rust.
Just how bad is that rust?

My biggest problem buying old cars is optimism. It costs more in time and money than you ever imagine it will to put things right. So if this bus has a strong motor, drives well and doesn't need the whole bottom 6" welding then it might well be a good buy. Embrace your inner cynicism!

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omacdon2
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by omacdon2 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:34 am

Here's some pics of the rust
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67257639-4cfa-4a8d-af83-3af4c277f3a6.jpg
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tommu
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by tommu » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:30 am

I need to say that the pictures are pretty low resolution. Are the originals much bigger?

From what I can see I would walk away because I cannot weld and can only imagine what lurks behind those holes.
Others will have better educated opinions on this!

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Amskeptic
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:58 am

omacdon2 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:34 am
Here's some pics of the rust

From the photographs, I do not find that a deal-stopper. You will need to stop that rust in its tracks, and we have ways to do exactly that in two weekends with an air compressor and plenty of labor. Then you will have bought yourself some time to prepare for more thorough work . . . or leave it alone for 26 years like I did with the Road Warrior.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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omacdon2
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by omacdon2 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:09 am

Thanks guys. Part of me still wants a bus that has a camper on top too and the whole camping package. I hope you're not getting sick of me yet, but I have another find... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds ... id=2238847

And some more info:
We have owned this bus for one year, we have other VWs that we are focusing on and need to sell bus. The under carriage is rust free! Tires are excellent with many miles left in them. The rubber seals are good no leaks unless you spray with pressure then a bit can come in around door. Yes this bus would make the trip, BUT, this is a bread box on wheels and not fast! We drive on highway regularly but do not exceed 65 mph as it is not aerodynamic and gas mileage would suffer.
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Amskeptic
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:27 am

omacdon2 wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:09 am
Thanks guys. Part of me still wants a bus that has a camper on top too and the whole camping package. I hope you're not getting sick of me yet, but I have another find... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds ... id=2238847

And some more info:
We have owned this bus for one year, we have other VWs that we are focusing on and need to sell bus. The under carriage is rust free! Tires are excellent with many miles left in them. The rubber seals are good no leaks unless you spray with pressure then a bit can come in around door. Yes this bus would make the trip, BUT, this is a bread box on wheels and not fast! We drive on highway regularly but do not exceed 65 mph as it is not aerodynamic and gas mileage would suffer.
I have to take off for the frozen north, but I will say that you want to coalesce your hopes, dreams, and expectations, so that you can be a potential buyer with laser focus, and a future owner with a clear-eyed view of what is to come. That '76 could be a good foundation, but I know I would work that asking price down and I would ask for the original fuel injection. Ask if it has a "performance cam" (those big honkin' carburetors tipped me off) because if it does, the automatic transmission can suffer as can driveability.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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omacdon2
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Re: VW Bus Buying Advice

Post by omacdon2 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:08 pm

Great advice. I will go take a look at it in January and hopefully drive it home. We had the first snowflakes in Boston today. Have a good trip to the frozen north and Merry Christmas to all! :)

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