2 litre FI stalling problems

Carbs & F.I.

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Scylla
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2 litre FI stalling problems

Post by Scylla » Sun May 02, 2010 6:16 am

Hi all

My first post, hope you may be able to help.

I've bought a 77 Riviera fitted with a Type 4 2.0FI engine. All was well for the first couple of hundred miles, then it began to splutter, stall and cut out while on the move. It seemed to get worse the harder I pushed the throttle; I was able to coax it home on a couple of occasions by being very gentle. If I waited 10 minutes or so it would always start up again, drive ok for about 5 miles then it would happen again. In the garage they changed the points and the fuel filter, which was badly clogged, and it all seemed to be fixed until today, when I encountered the same problem - it starts and idles, but rev it up and it splutters and dies. I've made about 5 journeys over about 100 miles since it came out of the garage.

I know nothing about engines although I realise I have to learn some basics. Can anyone suggest anything obvious I might try myself, or can you suggest solutions I can pass on to the mechanic when it goes back in the garage please?

Thanks a lot

Damian

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Randy in Maine
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Post by Randy in Maine » Sun May 02, 2010 6:27 am

I would change out the Temp Sensor II if it were me. It is over by cylinder #3 and has a 13mm head and has a black wire that feeds into the engine wiring harness. Buy 2 and keep a new spare in your tool box.

http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?par ... 0280130012

Suggestion:

For cheap money you can invest in some tools that will allow you to start fixing your own bus. Good mechanics that are able to work on VW buses are few and far between and a lot fewer than they think.

$40 Volt ohm meter with dwell and tach functions :
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002L ... 4ATH3JCA36

And for $20 you can make this fuel pressure gauge pay for itself in short order...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/VDO-153008/

Plus even if you can't fix what ails you , this manual will make the guy who does competent to do it if he can follow direction. Really the best money you will ever spend on your bus.

http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?par ... ENTLEYV279

Here is some information on how we troubleshoot these (might want to print this out and put it in your 3 ring bus binder)....

http://manuals.type4.org/ljet/
79 VW Bus

Scylla
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Post by Scylla » Sun May 02, 2010 7:48 am

Please accept my thanks for such a detailed and fast response!

Don't shout at me, but I have no idea where to look for this sensor as I simply don't even know where cylinder 3 is, or what it looks like. A google search has left me none the wiser. Can you give me some more directions please? Am I looking through the engine hatch on the back, or the one inside the bus?

I had already determined to do just as you suggest, and learn to maintain my bus myself; I've begun the process of acquiring the tools I need, and hope that the folk on this forum will not be impatient if I ask questions which might appear hopelessly stupid to them.

Just as an aside... yesterday I removed the old interior, which included a lot of old wiring connected up to a water pump and heater, and I also removed a CB aerial from the side of the body - a long wire ran from this into the dashboard somewhere, so I just cut it off. I am now worried that in doing all this I have cut some critical piece of wiring... I couldn't have cut the wire to the sensor by accident, could I - ?

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bretski
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Post by bretski » Sun May 02, 2010 7:55 am

Looking down at the engine, this is the cylinder layout:

3 1
4 2


Do as Randy indicated, and get the Bentley manual ASAP. Read.

I would also suggest you start reading the technical articles on Ratwell's site, and the type2 site

http://ratwell.com

http://type2.com

You didn't hurt anything by cutting a CB antenna wire....except maybe your CB reception. :)
1978 Deluxe Westfalia - "Klaus"

"transcripts are overrated. hardware store receipts: those are useful." --skin daddio

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dtrumbo
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Post by dtrumbo » Sun May 02, 2010 8:01 am

Hi Damian!

I'll second the advice Randy provided and I'll throw in that you shouldn't have to provide suggestions to someone you give your money. Your money alone is the "suggestion" to fix your bus. Save your money and do it yourself. I knew NOTHING about engines or even cars in general when I bought my first bus, but thanks to this site and a little common sense, I (mostly) successfully drive and maintain three air-cooled VW's.

To add to your specific problem, if changing the "badly clogged" fuel filter helped for awhile, then I think it reasonable to assume your fuel tank has a fair amount of rust in it and your new filter maybe clogged yet again. Replacing the filter again and monitoring the results will confirm this theory. If it clogs yet again, the fix for this unfortunately, is removing the engine, then removing the fuel tank and having it cleaned and sealed or just replacing it the tank all together.

I just read your follow-up post and I can reasonably say not to worry about removing the CB antenna or the sink/heater wiring. Almost certainly it is not related to your current issue which very much sounds like fuel starvation.

Where are you located? The best money you can spend on you and your bus is to schedule a visit from Colin who can teach you more in one day than you could ever imagine. I can honestly say, the knowledge you gain will more than pay for itself.

Even if you don't get on his itinerary this year, you can still get your bus running with the vast knowledge base here on the IAC forum. Welcome and enjoy the ride!
- Dick

1970 Transporter. 2015cc, dual Weber IDF 40's
1978 Riviera Camper. Bone stock GE 2.0L F.I.
1979 Super Beetle convertible.

... as it turns out, it was the coil!

Scylla
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Post by Scylla » Sun May 02, 2010 8:12 am

I'm a little overwhelmed with the good vibes emanating from this forum!

I'm located in Newcastle, in North-East England, so I suspect a meeting with Colin may be difficult...! How I would love to spend a day with someone who knows what they're about; I really want to learn. Dtrumbo, I see you have a Riviera too... I salvaged a water tank and two roller shutters from the interior yesterday - are they any good to you?

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sun May 02, 2010 8:38 am

Randy in Maine wrote: I would change out the Temp Sensor II if it were me.
Why? We do not promote throwing parts at a problem here on the IAC.
Perhaps you can develop your teaching skills and your desire to help others by kicking it up a notch right here.

Do not suggest that people do a damn thing without first asking the sorts of questions that help narrow down the possible causes. This helps THEM learn to think rationally and direct their inquiry efficiently, and it, of course helps you to figure out what is actually wrong. Why not ask them to perform a quick easy resistance test of the sensor? 2800 ohms at room temperature, less when warmer, and then they can save themselves the aggravation of ordering a part and waiting for a week and finding themselves in the same predicament. Seen it first hand time after time after time after time.
Randy In Maine wrote: And for $20 you can make this fuel pressure gauge pay for itself in short order...
and how is that? What exactly is a fuel pressure gauge going to tell someone that saves them $20.00? if you do not clearly specify that perfect fuel pressure at idle may still hide the fact that the pump is failing under demand, or that low fuel pressure may not be a bad pump but aforementioned fuel filter or fuel line clogging? I have a customer who put in a "real time" fuel gauge hanging back there (a $20.00 piece of crap that is leaking at its Bowden tube and the 7mm T fitting plug is long gone so now what do we do?) and it merely is another unnecessary place to burn down your VW.

I would like the Throw Parts And Suggestions Like Confetti to remain where it flourishes best, and I would like this forum to be short on "answers" and long on serious focused questions followed by sensible focused solutions. Can we do that?

YES I AM IN A GOOD MOOD SO SHUT UP.
Colin :compress:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Amskeptic
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Re: 2 litre FI stalling problems

Post by Amskeptic » Sun May 02, 2010 8:43 am

Scylla wrote:Hi all

My first post, hope you may be able to help.

I've bought a 77 Riviera fitted with a Type 4 2.0FI engine. All was well for the first couple of hundred miles, then it began to splutter, stall and cut out while on the move. It seemed to get worse the harder I pushed the throttle; I was able to coax it home on a couple of occasions by being very gentle. If I waited 10 minutes or so it would always start up again, drive ok for about 5 miles then it would happen again. In the garage they changed the points and the fuel filter, which was badly clogged, and it all seemed to be fixed until today, when I encountered the same problem - it starts and idles, but rev it up and it splutters and dies. I've made about 5 journeys over about 100 miles since it came out of the garage.

I know nothing about engines although I realise I have to learn some basics. Can anyone suggest anything obvious I might try myself, or can you suggest solutions I can pass on to the mechanic when it goes back in the garage please?

Thanks a lot

Damian
As mentioned by some of the fine contributors here, it is very possible that your new filter has clogged yet again. To help you narrow down the cause of the above symptoms, replace the filter again, and get out there and drive it hard right away with the new filter. If symptoms have ceased, you can be sure that you have some tank sediment issues to clean up.
Colin
(by the way, do be sure to have a spare Randy In Maine TempSensor II in your parts stash)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Kubelwagen
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Post by Kubelwagen » Sun May 02, 2010 8:50 am

dtrumbo wrote:Hi Damian!

To add to your specific problem, if changing the "badly clogged" fuel filter helped for awhile, then I think it reasonable to assume your fuel tank has a fair amount of rust in it and your new filter maybe clogged yet again. Replacing the filter again and monitoring the results will confirm this theory.
This. I'm far from an expert, but I agree that a look at that new fuel filter is in order. Looking is free and if it's clogged already then you can look 'upstream' at the tank. If it is fine, then move 'downstream'.

I'm in the same boat as you, learning as I go. Colin's (cranky :) ) advice is of course good. Don't throw money at the bus and hope it fixes something. Pursue the problem step by logical step until you find the cause(s).

Bottom line is that there's nothing on these engines that even newbies like us can't do, given time and care. Keep plugging along! =D>
Patience the 81 Adventurewagen

Scylla
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Post by Scylla » Sun May 02, 2010 8:55 am

Am I allowed to ask how to go about replacing the filter? It was the garage man last time, but I'd like to try myself....

Colin, you're not in England anytime soon are you?!

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sun May 02, 2010 9:04 am

Scylla wrote:Am I allowed to ask how to go about replacing the filter? It was the garage man last time, but I'd like to try myself....

Colin, you're not in England anytime soon are you?!
Replacing the filter is easy. You look for the fresh white or grey plastic box with hoses leading to it, located under the car inside of and near the left rear wheel. No incandescent light bulbs or cigars nearby please.

Pinch the incoming hose with a fuel hose clamp or protected vise grips so as not to damage the hose. Be thorough, be careful and have a bucket nearby as Plan B (plan B is that you got scared of the gas that accidentally gushed and you blew out of there).

Loosen the clamps on the incoming (will be under tank volume pressure!) and outgoing ( a little dribble from fuel rail don't panic) hoses. Rotate the filter back and forth as you hold the hose you're currently working with and pull apart. A dribble is to be expected. It should end shortly. If it keeps dribbling, don't even worry about it, just get the bucket under there and complete your job with this slight leak. Rotate filter back and forth and pull from the other hose. Do not twist hoses . . . ever. Now install new filter. Tighten clamps not crazy tight, just nice and tidy. Wipe down any liquidity. Remove fuel hose block-off clamp or vise grips. Stare at your work and look for recurring dampness that suggests a leak. If gassy, let things evaporate and air out a bit before starting the engine.
Colin :alien:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Scylla
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Post by Scylla » Sun May 02, 2010 9:11 am

Thanks so much. I've just been underneath my bus and located the filter, which I regard as a significant technical and psychological achievement. It's late Sunday here in the frozen North of England so there are no shops open anywhere, but when they open - do I need a filter which is specific to the bus, or are they generic?

Thanks for your patience. I am trying to supplement my newbie questions here with online research, but simply looking at the reams of material available on Mr Atwell's page is making my forehead bleed. But I am trying to help myself - I'm not expecting to be simply spoon-fed here on IAC.

Scylla
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Post by Scylla » Sun May 02, 2010 11:15 am

Update - a nice man from the AA came out and cleaned the fuel filter (he didn't have a new one). It was badly clogged up with what looked like rust.

The van now starts but will not stay started. He says the fuel pump is the main suspect; he says it should make a positive noise when you turn the ignition on but that it's barely making a sound at all, and doesn't appear to be sending the fuel through at the required rate. He suggests that some of the contaminant from the tank has got through the filter into the pump, or that it's simply burned out from the strain of pumping the fuel through all the gunk in the filter. What are your thoughts?

So I guess I need to buy a new pump and filter and take it from there, and also I feel I should not be driving it around until I can get the fuel tank cleaned out?

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Sun May 02, 2010 12:06 pm

A new pump is very expensive. Don't buy one yet! They are also remarkably robust. It may well work perfectly again when it gets a good supply of fuel, if a filter has been in place at all times.

By the way, just turning on the key should not make the pump run. The engine must be cranking or running for the fuel pump to be on.

It sounds like your first project should be to remove and clean the fuel tank. You do NOT need to remove the engine to do this, just lower it. I've done it this way myself. See this thread...

viewtopic.php?t=1722

Mr. Atwell has a good write-up for dealing with rust in the tank.

Where in Northern England are you? We visited friends last Summer in Moulton, Richmond, North Yorkshire and had a wonderful time!
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

Scylla
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Post by Scylla » Sun May 02, 2010 12:38 pm

Hi Don

Not quite sure what you mean - if the old filter has been cleaned then presumably it is now allowing a good supply of fuel? Are you suggesting I should simply buy a new filter rather than a pump?

Thank you for the tip on removing the tank, that's going to save a lot of hassle!

I live about 40 miles north of Richmond in Newcastle, where I work as a local tv reporter. Richmond is part of my patch and I do what I can to find stories down there as it's such a lovely part of the country :flower:

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