Parts: Known to be Acceptable

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Amskeptic
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:51 am

kreemoweet wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: Those pumps with a single bolt at the top are sporting a screen up there.
We should all be clear that a pump having but a single screw/bolt on top does not preclude them having a cutoff valve. For instance, according to the Haynes
70-74 Beetle manual, the pumps that came with late 72-74 1600 Beetles had a cutoff valve under their single-screw top, and were visually indistiguishable from
the earlier pumps which did not (and had a separate cutoff device), until you took the lid off. Also, some aftermarket pumps which can not be disassembled
clearly have cutoff valves inside, or are constructed so as to have the same practical effect. Blowing into the inlets with pressure less than pump output pressure
is a good practical test of a fuel pump. Pumps with missing or defective cutoff valves, such as you find in the WW kit, will have flow; the others will not.
I remember those short-lived external cut-off valves with hoses galore. Cut-off valves inside the single screw pumps, I think might be people attributing to the normal spring-loaded outlet poppet valve.

Image

You remember these little buggers?

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

kreemoweet
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by kreemoweet » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:58 pm

zabo wrote: . . . gas everywhere . . .
Not an unexpected result if one of WW's short-ass diaphragms was used, as they cannot physically be assembled with the correct 14 mm preload for the stock
fuel pump. I, and others, have found a maximum preload of about 10-11 mm can be used. Then, of course, when the fuel pump operating rod in the engine
reaches it's maximum height of about 13 mm above the pump flange, it can cause a tremendous yank on the diaphragm material, which is designed to
flex, but not to stretch. A torn diaphragm usually means the engine top will be doused liberally with gasoline.

One has to wonder how many of our aircooled VW's have burned to the ground on account of the bogus parts WW and others are purveying.

I'm trying to devise a way to modify a too-short diaphragm back to stock length. I'm thinking of cutting the 4 mm diaphragm pull rod, threading both
ends, and putting it back together using a coupling nut or some such.
Amskeptic wrote: You remember these little buggers?
I've only seen pictures of those little dudes.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:58 am

kreemoweet wrote: One has to wonder how many of our aircooled VW's have burned to the ground on account of the bogus parts WW and others are purveying.
It is too terrible to contemplate . . .

The profit motive reaches deep. You may remember the Partnair flight 394 crash in September of 1989 where the tail broke free and brought the plane down . . . investigators discovered that the tail mounting bolts were soft counterfeits that broke due to sympathetic vibration with a loose auxiliary power unit. OEM bolts were $16.00 ea, 4 required. The counterfeited bolts sold for $5.00 each. They saved $44.00.

Subsequent investigation uncovered that 39% of all aircraft replacement parts worldwide were counterfeit, including replacement parts fitted to Air Force One.
Hey, sleep well.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

kreemoweet
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by kreemoweet » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:56 pm

As an item of possible interest, there are still fuel pumps similar to the ones under discussion being offered with the "Pierburg" brand:
http://www.ms-motorservice.com/en/produ ... el-supply/
Pierburg part #7.02242.04.0 (7.02242.43.0 for the alternator-style pump). As near as I can tell, no one in the U.S. is selling these, I wonder why?
I didn't see a repair kit in the Pierburg catalog, but maybe I missed it.

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hambone
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by hambone » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:10 pm

Interesting. Betcha they're made in China....
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

kreemoweet
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by kreemoweet » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:57 pm

I finally located a domestic source for one of the Pierburg fuel pumps mentioned above, and got one. Ninety bucks (shipping included)
from here: https://www.rmeuropean.com/Products/113 ... FG244.aspx. It was sent out immediately from their wholesale supplier
in Georgia. Here it is installed in my mechanical fuel pump test rig (note that the fuel hose connections would normally be pointing in
the opposite direction):

Image

It's pretty clear that this is the same pump made by the Italian firm BCD-Corona, and being sold here:
https://www.paruzzi.com/uk/volkswagen/e ... lines/4541
Those folks also sell a nice rebuild kit for the same pump, as item #4542.
The Pierburg pump I got has had all 3 of the BCD logos that were cast into the pump body ground off, and they did a nice job of it.
The first thing I did was take it all apart:

Image
Image

I didn't take out the internal operating lever because doing so would have disturbed the staking holding the lever
shaft in place. The pump is cleverly designed so that the entire diaphragm assembly can be removed after turning it
90 degrees. The diaphragm has a little tab on it so you can tell if its orientation is correct.
I then put it back together, preloading the diaphragm 5.5 mm (since it's an "alternator-style" pump), and did an output pressure test.
I initially had some difficulty getting a stable ouput pressure from the pump. At one point, I could get it up to 10.5 psi, but something
was clearly wrong, as all previous pumps I had tested smoothly pumped up to their max, and stayed there no matter how energetically
I operated the pump mechanism. My theory is that I didn't preload the diaphragm quite enough, and it was being stretched by the
inertia of the operating rod and thereby adding to the pressure provided by the diaphragm spring. At any rate, I added six gaskets under
the pump, the stack measuring 2 mm with caliper, but probably a little less after bolting the pump back in place. I was then able to
get a stable, smooth output pressure of about 4.5-4.3 psi.

This seems like a fairly well-made pump. The diaphragm is of real Effbe material, nice and thick. The input hose connection (top, black
plastic) is marked as such. The output connection is brass. The screws joining top and bottom are M4, rather than the usual M5. It was
leak-free with only moderate torque applied to the fasteners. I did notice a little ridge (pointed to by red arrow in one of the photos above)
on the operating lever that was causing a noise, and notchy movement, when the operating rod slid over it. I ground it down with
a carbide file burr in my Dremel tool, and all was fine. Although the mode of operation is identical with the old original VW/Pierburg
pumps, it seems that none of the parts are interchangeable.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:14 pm

kreemoweet wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:57 pm
A) I finally located a domestic source for one of the Pierburg fuel pumps mentioned above, and got one. Ninety bucks (shipping included)

B) Although the mode of operation is identical with the old original VW/Pierburg
pumps, it seems that none of the parts are interchangeable.

Hello kreemoweet,
a) When I am through my second rebuild diaphragm, I'm game.

b) Yay for proprietary engineering. Is that a plastic top section? Rubber poppet valves? Outlet valve have a spring seat under/behind it? Are the nipples the same diameter? The upper one seems to have more going on with its profile.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

kreemoweet
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by kreemoweet » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:41 pm

Plastic top section, yes. As is the filter screen. Both inlet and outlet nipples are 6 mm, like all other pumps of the same application that I've seen, but the plastic inlet nipple
seems to have a bit of taper to it, becoming almost 7 mm by the time it reaches the pump body. Both nipples have nice end bulbs with no sharp edges
to cut into your fuel hose. Check valves are identical rubber disks, but pointed in opposite directions. No springs. They both just snap into the large white
plastic holder, as shown in photo, which in turn evidently just presses into the pump body. It felt like I could easily pry the thing out, but I saw no
reason to.

This pump might be just the thing when we lose our sources of competently rebuilt original Pierburg pumps. Nowhere near as purty, though.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:02 pm

kreemoweet wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:41 pm
Plastic top section, yes. As is the filter screen. Both inlet and outlet nipples are 6 mm, like all other pumps of the same application that I've seen, but the plastic inlet nipple
seems to have a bit of taper to it, becoming almost 7 mm by the time it reaches the pump body. Both nipples have nice end bulbs with no sharp edges
to cut into your fuel hose. Check valves are identical rubber disks, but pointed in opposite directions. No springs. They both just snap into the large white
plastic holder, as shown in photo, which in turn evidently just presses into the pump body. It felt like I could easily pry the thing out, but I saw no
reason to.

This pump might be just the thing when we lose our sources of competently rebuilt original Pierburg pumps. Nowhere near as purty, though.
You mentioned that the pivot pin is staked into the body of the pump. Does that mean no circlips? Could we put in longer pins with circlip grooves, or do you think these new pumps can actually keep the pins in place unlike those Brazilian ones?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

kreemoweet
Getting Hooked!
Location: Seattle
Status: Offline

Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by kreemoweet » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:07 pm

Colin wrote: ... Does that mean no circlips? ...
No circlips. In order to use a standard pump pivot pin w/circlips, you'd have to machine down the pin bosses on each side a little bit.
Or just one boss a lot, if one heedeth not the claims of Symmetry. I can venture no opinion as to the likelihood of pin location failure on this
new pump. The staking looks visibly adequte. I have zero experience with other aftermarket pumps with staked pins. I suspect that many
reported failures of the later might have something to do with the fact that they are often installed just as they come in the box: with
no or very little grease/lube in the pin/lever compartment.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Parts: Known to be Acceptable

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:28 pm

kreemoweet wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:07 pm
Colin wrote: ... Does that mean no circlips? ...
No circlips.

I suspect that many reported failures of the later might have something to do with the fact that they are often installed just as they come in the box: with no or very little grease/lube in the pin/lever compartment.

Our very own Filthy Dub, on his wedding day (!), lost the pivot pin in his Brosol pump, dead on the side of the road. No circlips. Plenty of grease. An easy press fit. I could not believe it . . . (they're still married, thank god)
Colin

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/vie ... 88#p228849
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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