1978 Westfalia - Won't Start (long story) and "Hi"

[Old McDonald]

Hello,
My Bus: 1978 Westy, 2.0L GE engine, FI.
The History: Summer of '06= pulled engine, replaced seals and cleaned up engine because bad oil leak was discovered. Plus, fuel lines were replaced, fuel pump was replaced, and Temp Sensor 2 was replaced. Installed tin that was in better shape than the old set. I also put on a new condensor and points.
The problem: Ever since I installed the engine (fall of '06 until now), I can't get this thing to start. I turn the ignition on, and the engine keeps turning over but normally doesn't start. It seems that i can get it to start for a second if I move the dizzy ahead counter-clockwise, but when it does start, it is only for a second, and then it peters out and dies. Spark is good, there is fuel pressure (I will double check this once more), the battery is fresh, and I don't THINK there are any vaccuum leaks. After it starts for a second, however, I think I hear a slight hiss that dies out shortly after the engine dies, kind of in the area of the brake booster hose. Oh yeah- there is a new brake booster valve facing the right way on the hose, and it appears everything is clamped good.
That's the skinny... tried searching thesamba.com, but there aren't any good threads posted about this that are helpful, and each time I ever posted a question on the samba, 2 things always happen: 1. There's always a lot of advice from people who seem not to read my question that feel obligated to give any advice at all, no matter how crappy it is, or 2. I get lectures from people who feel the need to insult my intelligence, stating the obvious and being a prick about it all the while. (I am sure many know of what I am talking about) I am not new to these cars, but I AM new to this problem here! :) This forum looks a little more "bay window friendly" to me, so feel free to offer any hints if you have witnessed any of this before... I hope I provided enough info, but not too much!
Thanks,
Old McDonald

[Amskeptic]

engine keeps turning over but normally doesn't start.
Spark is good, there is fuel pressure
I don't THINK there are any vaccuum leaks.
I think I hear a slight hiss that dies out shortly after the engine dies,

Pull the booster hose right off the engine. Plug the hole with a reliable plug of your own choosing. That rubber wye where the booster line fits in, also has a hose coming down from the decel valve. You may want to plug that line as well AFTER you try to start with just the brake line plugged only to find the symptom is the same.

I have a hunch though, that the fuel rail is air-bound. Obtain a companion. Instruct companion to "crank" when you say "crank" and "release" when you say "release" and "shut it off" when you say "shut it off".
"Ignition" : just the idiot lights at the gauges, no cranking allowed.
"Crank": to engage starter with the key at start position.
"Release" : to let go of the key to stop the starter motor without killing the ignition!
"Shut it off" : to actually turn the key to off to shut off the engine and take a rest.

When you all are on the same page, please prepare by removing the black plastic cover on the air flow meter. It can be a pain if it has never been removed before. A broad chisel and careful spreading of your force will prevent it from cracking. Running a razor blade around the periphery if there is a bead of sealant will help.

Turn on the ignition. Move the little plastic wiper-with-copper-contacts with your fingers, counter-clockwise, gently, and you should hear the double relay to your left go "click" and the fuel pump should turn on. There will be spitting and intermittantish noises if air is being driven out of the system. Let fuel pump run for a minute. Now try to start the engine normally. If yes, let it warm up and let us know how it drives.
If it refuses, but shows signs of life, then enrich the mixture during cranking by gently pushing the wiper counter-clockwise maybe a 1/4-3/8" additionally beyond the engine's natural movement of the wiper. Be sensitive to the engine's firing. Can you actually get the engine to run by your finger-movement-of-wiper-additional-fuel? Let us know.
I'll wait here.
Colin

[Bookwus]

Hiya Mc,

Didn't anybody over at TS tell you to look it up in the Archives? Honestly, besides the crap, I thought that was their favorite answer over there.

By the way, you need to get back to Colin. He's still sitting there in front of his computer waiting for you.

And welcome to the lunatic fringe!

[Old McDonald]

Thanks Colin-
I tried the tests you said. Now, with the AFM test, was I supposed to keep pressing as the engine was being started, or let go after pushing the needle a bit, and THEN start the engine? I pushed the needle in the AFM counter-clockwise just enough to hear the fuel pump, and held it for about a minute, let go, and then started the ignition. It sputtered briefly, but did not start. Then, I tried the test again by puching the needle over a little more than before, but it still sputtered when it tried to start. However, it seemed to do a little more this time. Third, I pushed the needle over as far as it could go, held it there to let the pump run for a minute, then tried the ignition again. It sputtered and ran (sort of) for a couple of seconds, then died.
So, that's what I have so far. Again, thanks for the help. If the needle needs to stay pushed while the ignition is being turned, then I need to attempt this again....
Old McDonald

[Old McDonald]

Here is an update:
I tired stuff again today, using a remote starter and turning the ignition as I operated the wiper arm in the AFM. It ran for a tiny bit this time, and I was able to pinpoint the hissing by the check valve and brake booster. I wrapped the ends of the check valve with electrical tape, put on new clamps, and it started right up and ran for a while. It ran kind of rough, though, and eventually dies. It seems to run longer if I push the dizzy ahead. When I pull it back so the notch lines up with the rotor (at TDC), however, it dies much sooner. I want to be able to 1. Time it correctly, and 2. set the idle correctly before I take it for a spin. Any suggestions on what to do with this deal?
Thanks- we may be getting REAL close!
Old McDonald

[Amskeptic]

I wrapped the ends of the check valve with electrical tape, put on new clamps, and it started right up and ran for a while.
It seems to run longer if I push the dizzy ahead.

Advancing the timing to keep it running is a cheat. But feel free to do it as we try to get the car running. Do not, however, drive it until it is correctly timed. The notch deal is only a reference. The timing scale, on the other hand, is what you time it to. Got stroboscopic timing light?

With the engine barely running or even just cranking over, yes, nudge the wiper a very little bit CCW with a careful ear to whether or not it is helping. Do not do not do not do not crank that wiper all the way counter-clockwise ever. Nobody asked you to, and such creative flights of fancy will piss off the little dictator who is trying to help you, not to mention flood the engine and add variables we don't want to deal with. So it was a vacuum leak that was causing the hiss. For penance, please double-check all vacuum lines and the s-boot and even the injector seals. If the engine really likes your little nudge CCW on the wiper, see if you can get it to actually idle nicely. Get back in touch with the news either way, and we can help you bring the timing back to where it belongs and set the fuel mixture.
Colin

[Old McDonald]

This is where I am at.
(I didn't flood the engine. This problem may be new to me, but I am not dumb. :) )
I started it again today (after adjusting the valves while the engine was dead cold), and lightly pushed the needle in the afm over. When I moved the dizzy back to probably where it should be when timed right (yes, I have a timing light), the engone would start to die... when I nudged the needle a little, it stayed running, FYI. It is also idling high, and when I turn the screw to slow down the idle, it dies, FYI.
So, yes, turning the needle helps. Next words of wisdom, anyone??? :)

Oh yeah, another FYI- when I tried to time the engine moving the dizzy back, the engine coughs and dies when the timing mark is where it should be.
Old McDonald

[Amskeptic]

A) when I moved the dizzy back to probably where it should be when timed right (yes, I have a timing light), the engine would start to die...

B) when I nudged the needle a little, it stayed running,
It is also idling high, when I turn the screw to slow down the idle, it dies.

C)(So, yes, turning the needle helps. Next words of wisdom, anyone??? :)

Find companion to crouch on rear seat to manually keep wiper arm at slight rich, whatever it takes to keep engine running.

A) Set timing to 7.5 BTDC at idle of 1,000 rpm. (but idle is too fast! > turn it down with the big brass speed screw to 1,000 rpm as you bark at companion to pay attention to keeping wiper where engine is happiest).
Timing is a critical do-not-play-with-it parameter. . . doesn't matter if it runs better by advancing it, put it where it belongs.
:blackknight:

B) Based on your information, the engine is running way too lean. Most usually, this is because of a myriad of vacuum leaks, some obvious, some not. If, after you have checked the s-boot for subtle cracks along the pleats. checked the auxiliary air regulator elbow, checked the intake runner sleeves top and bottom, we can give you temporary relief from this lean condition. What we want to do is make the wiper stay where your companion has managed to keep it running.

Achtung! Please follow these directions explicitly:

1) Shut off engine. Turn the mixture screw in the AFM clockwise from its current position until it seats. Count how far and tell me. Bring it back to where you found it.
2) Make a reference mark between the black plastic of the wiper near the bottom and the shiny metal plate that it clamps to. Loosen the little screw in that ovalized slot (it may have a silicone glob to prevent you from fooling with it, peel it out).
3) Move the wiper counterclockwise ONE LITTLE TOOTH and tighten the screw not too tight.
4) Start engine. How is it running? If you have room to move the mixture screw clockwise (to richen) it is an option.

Your best field test for mixture, once it is running decently enough to not require babysitting at the AFM, is to simply nudge the wiper infinitesimally counterclockwise or clockwise with your chubby finger and listen to what happens:
if the idle goes UP counterclockwise, it is still too lean.
if the idle goes down counterclockwise, it is too rich.
if the idle goes UP clockwise it is too rich.
if the idle goes down clockwise it could be OK if it recovers the instant you let go.

If the wiper can move a 1/4" in either direction without materially affecting the engine revs, yer OK. We will do a dynamic adjustment of the black wheel/spring after you report results.
Colin

[dwolf]

A non-functional but partially running engine can be statically timed
fairly accurately with any kind of multimeter or even a 12 v. bulb
wired to a couple of alligator clips. Just set the timing marks at the
fan where you want, and twist the dizzy with the metering tool
across the points to verify points open/closing where you want them.
Add in the advance by twisting the rotor in the dizzy.
The FI information you seek is unfortunately hidden- in books.
FI problems are most expediently resolved by following the Bentley
procedures. These were determined decades ago to be the proper
sequences of verification. If you do this once, you will see
the value. Conclusions based on opinion, circumventing procedures,
and the like, will leave you right back where you began, mystified.
The ECU wiring harness plug is the best source of information you
have. It contains the answers. Empirical evidence, based on experience,
is one way to short-circuit the process (pun intended); anecdotal evidence,
based on assumption, is another. Verification, based on fact, works every time.

Zundefolge!

[Old McDonald]

A non-functional but partially running engine can be statically timed
fairly accurately with any kind of multimeter or even a 12 v. bulb
wired to a couple of alligator clips. Just set the timing marks at the
fan where you want, and twist the dizzy with the metering tool
across the points to verify points open/closing where you want them.
Add in the advance by twisting the rotor in the dizzy.
The FI information you seek is unfortunately hidden- in books.
FI problems are most expediently resolved by following the Bentley
procedures. These were determined decades ago to be the proper
sequences of verification. If you do this once, you will see
the value. Conclusions based on opinion, circumventing procedures,
and the like, will leave you right back where you began, mystified.
The ECU wiring harness plug is the best source of information you
have. It contains the answers. Empirical evidence, based on experience,
is one way to short-circuit the process (pun intended); anecdotal evidence,
based on assumption, is another. Verification, based on fact, works every time.

Zundefolge!

Bentley= followed all of that already... Bentley is great, but I found out it is not ALWAYS the answer to everything... but a better book than others on the market, for sure.

How do you use a multi meter to statically time an engine? What I mean, even though you explained it, what on the multi meter tells you that it is timed? i never tried that one... thanks.

[dwolf]

Continuity scale. Like Muir shows you how to verify TDC, you can also
use the meter to set the full advance by placing the timing mark,
then twisting the dizzy to set the points opening at that spot, including the
advance, if you add it in manually by twisting the rotor at the same time.
All done statically (engine off). Or voltage scale ( 12 v. ignition source).
Or by visual, if you are out in the woods with no meter, the points will
spark when they close.

Old McDonald wrote

How do you use a multi meter to statically time an engine? What I mean, even though you explained it, what on the multi meter tells you that it is timed? i never tried that one... thanks.

[Amskeptic]

Bentley is great, but I found out it is not ALWAYS the answer to everything...
How do you use a multi meter to statically time an engine?

We are actually Bentley post-graduates here. I guarantee you that the Bentley procedures are hamstrung by the emission regulations that they had to, by law, follow. I guarantee you that you end up with an engine that is running hot, lean and surgy when cold.

When you have reached the "engine actually runs by itself" point, if you follow my AFM adjustment procedures not yet written, you will be in possession of the smoothest possible running. Your fuel mileage may be a couple mpg below optimal, but your exhaust valves will be happy. And as we say here, "if your exhaust valves are happy, you're happy."

[Old McDonald]

A) when I moved the dizzy back to probably where it should be when timed right (yes, I have a timing light), the engine would start to die...

B) when I nudged the needle a little, it stayed running,
It is also idling high, when I turn the screw to slow down the idle, it dies.

C)(So, yes, turning the needle helps. Next words of wisdom, anyone??? :)

Find companion to crouch on rear seat to manually keep wiper arm at slight rich, whatever it takes to keep engine running.

A) Set timing to 7.5 BTDC at idle of 1,000 rpm. (but idle is too fast! > turn it down with the big brass speed screw to 1,000 rpm as you bark at companion to pay attention to keeping wiper where engine is happiest).
Timing is a critical do-not-play-with-it parameter. . . doesn't matter if it runs better by advancing it, put it where it belongs.
:blackknight:

B) Based on your information, the engine is running way too lean. Most usually, this is because of a myriad of vacuum leaks, some obvious, some not. If, after you have checked the s-boot for subtle cracks along the pleats. checked the auxiliary air regulator elbow, checked the intake runner sleeves top and bottom, we can give you temporary relief from this lean condition. What we want to do is make the wiper stay where your companion has managed to keep it running.

Achtung! Please follow these directions explicitly:

1) Shut off engine. Turn the mixture screw in the AFM clockwise from its current position until it seats. Count how far and tell me. Bring it back to where you found it.
2) Make a reference mark between the black plastic of the wiper near the bottom and the shiny metal plate that it clamps to. Loosen the little screw in that ovalized slot (it may have a silicone glob to prevent you from fooling with it, peel it out).
3) Move the wiper counterclockwise ONE LITTLE TOOTH and tighten the screw not too tight.
4) Start engine. How is it running? If you have room to move the mixture screw clockwise (to richen) it is an option.

Your best field test for mixture, once it is running decently enough to not require babysitting at the AFM, is to simply nudge the wiper infinitesimally counterclockwise or clockwise with your chubby finger and listen to what happens:
if the idle goes UP counterclockwise, it is still too lean.
if the idle goes down counterclockwise, it is too rich.
if the idle goes UP clockwise it is too rich.
if the idle goes down clockwise it could be OK if it recovers the instant you let go.

If the wiper can move a 1/4" in either direction without materially affecting the engine revs, yer OK. We will do a dynamic adjustment of the black wheel/spring after you report results.
Colin

Results:
1. Mixture screw turned 7 times before it seated... then I put it back where it started (7 turns before)
2. After I nudged the needle a little bit, it kept running and seemed to be running ok... the RPM was in a good range, timing perfect.
3. Nusging the wiper a little clockwise/counterclockwise seemed like it didn't do anything to the revs, so I assume it may be okay. If YOU feel I am ready, I am ready for the next step!
Thanks once again. I was ready to push this off a cliff a week ago, and this is helping A LOT!
Old McDonald

[Amskeptic]

1. Mixture screw turned 7 times before it seated...
then I put it back where it started (7 turns before)
2. After I nudged the needle a little bit, it kept running and seemed to be running ok... the RPM was in a good range, timing perfect.
3. Nudging the wiper a little clockwise/counterclockwise seemed like it didn't do anything to the revs, so I assume it may be okay. If YOU feel I am ready, I am ready for the next step!

So it is idling by itself when warm at a decent rpm?

1. Mixture Screw Forensics: based on your information above, none has tried to hide a vacuum leak by running to that screw. This is good. Please take two and a half turns clockwise as our initial value on the mixture screw. This places us exactly in the middle of its possible adjustment range.

2. With a fully warm engine that has even had a chance to drive down the road for a good 20 minutes, re-check the wiper by the aforementioned little nudges, but see if you can read a tach-dwell meter while nudging. Try to get the most optimal rpms you can +/- 25 rpm. Even an analog meter can be very accurate if you can discern a needle on one side of a hash mark moving to the other side. You do not need to actually have the needle directly over a hash mark on the scale, you can just move your eyeballs to either side of the meter until you see the needle appear lined up. After you lock your eyeballs at whatever angle was required to have the needle lined up with a hash mark (note that I don't really care what the actual rpm is, we are just trying to catch a subtle change), gently move the wiper in either direction to catch the Very Most Optimal RPM you can. If you then tell me that you gained 25 RPM when you pushed the wiper counterclockwise, we will note, you and I, that the idle is slightly leanish but do nothing about it yet. If you find that you gained 25 rpm when you nudged the wiper clockwise, we will know that it is slightly richish. Move the wiper some more in each direction if you got no noticeable change in rpms. You WILL drop the revs in BOTH directions if you get ham-handed about it, that's OK too, just tell me if the distance-to-rev-drop favored CW or CCW.

As a preamble to our AFM adjustments, just lightly read the below to prime your mind to start working on the concepts subconsciously.

The AFM provides a complete matrix in the three possible adjustments provided:

A) the wiper hold-down screw inside that little oval slot I call the
Static Adjustment

B) the black cog with the teeth around its perimeter I call the
Dynamic Adjustment

C) the mixture screw I call the "trim adjustment" this week.

Between the three adjustments, we have the ability to affect the entire matrix, i.e. the mixture map.

Rich.
.......
.......
.......
.......
.......
Lean
. . . . ........................................................
Low RPM/Load . . . . . . . . . . . High RPM/Load

Since this current php site code is stuck on "left margin" I can't draw you a graph. Use your imagination. Imagine a direct 45* line from lean/low up to rich/high. That is a simple fuel consumption curve in a perfect theoretical world.

Your static adjustment (A) will move that line up or down maintaining the perfect 45* angle at all times. If you adjust the wiper CCW by loosening the hold-down screw and easing it over a tooth, you move that line up towards rich. Low speed/load, high speed/load, doesn't matter, the engine's entire experience gets richer.

Your dynamic adjustment (B) changes the slope of the map. Imagine a nice curve up towards "richer sooner", or imagine a curve towards horizontal which is "leaner later." If you rotate the black plastic cog (by prying the chrome lockwire away from a tooth with your regular screwdriver tip and rotate the cog CCW (richer) or CW (leaner) you either unwind the spring coiled in inside, or wind it up still further.
This adjustment primarily affects the higher rpm/load.

If you play with this adjustment, there will be some "blowback" on the idle adjustment which you then take care of the mixture screw.
Colin
(notice how I have not yet offer a procedure. . . . . .)

[Old McDonald]

Before I get into this even more (it sounded great today when I ran it a little bit... reasonable rpms while warm, timing still looks good), can't all of this stuff be checked now with an exhaust gas analyzer? How much would it hurt to drive this thing a little bit to a garage?