72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

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wdollie6
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:15 pm

Ok, I'm assuming a plug is better than a crack? Unfortunately I have a crack which is .358" from the intake up the tube (will send picture in the AM).. Assume that's like trying to suck through a straw with a split in it? Or if it's fully submerged in fuel (I assume it is) is it drawing too much?

Not sure how you knew that was the problem but to borrow some lingo from my youngest daughter, wow... seriously! OK accolades over, for now at least, what do I do about it... Can it be repaired, or is it to be replaced in some fashion, or is it time to drop ten and punt on this carb?

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:40 pm

wdollie6 wrote:Ok, I'm assuming a plug is better than a crack? Unfortunately I have a crack which is .358" from the intake up the tube (will send picture in the AM).. Assume that's like trying to suck through a straw with a split in it? Or if it's fully submerged in fuel (I assume it is) is it drawing too much?

Not sure how you knew that was the problem but to borrow some lingo from my youngest daughter, wow... seriously! OK accolades over, for now at least, what do I do about it... Can it be repaired, or is it to be replaced in some fashion, or is it time to drop ten and punt on this carb?

Wayne
Find another carburetor/carburetor top assy. I might have one if you can wait until I get back to Atlanta.
ColinLikeTotally
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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wdollie6
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:52 am

Attempted to download, or upload, hmmm... picture in different formats but res' was too high. Smallest file size I could get was 2.3 mb vs. the 1mb max limit. Regardless seems like you've been down this road before. When are you scheduled to be back in Atlanta? In the mean time I'll search what's out there and see availability... Based on all the conversions to other carbs I've read about on the Samba seems like there should be a plethora...

Let me know on your return to Atlanta, by the way noticed your NY plates, are you a NYawker or a Southerner.

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:11 am

wdollie6 wrote:Attempted to download, or upload, hmmm... picture in different formats but res' was too high. Smallest file size I could get was 2.3 mb vs. the 1mb max limit. Regardless seems like you've been down this road before. When are you scheduled to be back in Atlanta? In the mean time I'll search what's out there and see availability... Based on all the conversions to other carbs I've read about on the Samba seems like there should be a plethora...

Let me know on your return to Atlanta, by the way noticed your NY plates, are you a NYawker or a Southerner.

Wayne
I am an itinerant traveler with New York plates.
Will be in Atlanta by November 15th-ish
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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wdollie6
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:45 pm

Definitely can wait until then, the engine runs that was an accomplishment and while it was connected to the transmission (didn't have another way to run it) I also changed the side seals on the transaxle following your procedure, worked great. No more weeping, just need top of the fluid and that issues is taken care of. Meanwhile assembly continues on the bus, all new brakes, brake lines, hoses, etc... Next trick will be replacing the completed rusted y heat pipe that is welded to the floor, difficult finding but finally after months and months got my hands on one in good condition...

Let me know on the carb.

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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asiab3
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by asiab3 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:30 pm

Wayne, do you have a picture of the cracked piece in question? I have a spare set of PDSIT carbs from a '72 bus with sloppy throttle shafts and a few missing linkage parts. I would like to know a) what to look for in the future, b) if I can help in any way.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:41 pm

asiab3 wrote:Wayne, do you have a picture of the cracked piece in question? I have a spare set of PDSIT carbs from a '72 bus with sloppy throttle shafts and a few missing linkage parts. I would like to know a) what to look for in the future, b) if I can help in any way.

Robbie
Aw you don't need no picture, Robbie. It is the whole left carburetor top assy. These things get cracked when people try to remove them. It is the emulsion tube for the central idling circuit. It is the brass well with holes under the mixture screw that sits in the fuel bowl.
Colin93*EffectiveDegreesInMiamiWithThisDamnHumidity-I OfCourseLoveIt
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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wdollie6
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:06 am

Robbie, went the picture route but file size to big to post here, maybe Samba can handle the larger file? Colin describes the location very well but I'll attempt to post on my thread on the other forum. By the way had to replace shaft seals on both of my carbs as well, thankfully I own a business that has a machine shop, our guys do great work with our sports equipment, apparently automotive as well...

Still wonder if there is a way to repair the tube with solder or something of that nature, problem is tube is so small that it would probably just plug it.

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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wdollie6
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:16 am

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... highlight=

Robbie, posted here a few minutes ago.

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:54 am

Colin,

Hopefully you've made it safely back home to Atlanta by now, although will probably miss the warm/hot weather in Miami. When you get a chance if you could let me know on the carb top that I need (or entire carb if its to be sold complete) I would appreciate it. After not working on Fat Boy for a few weeks I am looking forward to digging back in either increasing or hopefully decreasing my frustration levels.

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:57 pm

wdollie6 wrote:Colin,

Hopefully you've made it safely back home to Atlanta by now, although will probably miss the warm/hot weather in Miami. When you get a chance if you could let me know on the carb top that I need (or entire carb if its to be sold complete) I would appreciate it. After not working on Fat Boy for a few weeks I am looking forward to digging back in either increasing or hopefully decreasing my frustration levels.

Wayne
Thank-you for the reminder. I will check tomorrow. Then I will delete all of this save for the salient posts.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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wdollie6
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:19 am

Finally had a chance to remove the cracked CIS pickup tube from the carb. top, actually came out easily with no damage to the tube. Needle nose vice grips with a rag wrap and slow and easy twists and it was out. Once out cleaned remaining crap (yes it still had debris in it) and then attempted to repair crack with solder. Big problem was that it was too small, or more likely torch too big, so during the process the small insert with the orifice actually fell out, not good. Turns out it was soldered in place. So cleaned both components coated with flux and resoldered which seemed to work fine. Verified that orifice was clear and pipe was clean and reinstalled, although frankly the only way I could test was to compare to pre-suck on crack and post-repair. The crack was definitely filled however not sure if I impacted the orifice size or had gaps around the insert.

Did what any normal person would do and reassemble anyway, should not have wasted my time, same issues as before, wouldn't idle. The only good news is that to get it to an 1100 or so idle I only had to squeeze the CIS intake elbow slightly, no longer had to cover almost the entire opening. I was also able to impact idle with both the speed and mixture screw which was also a considerable improvement. I went back through the engine readjusted the points, from .018 down to .017, attempted to retime and surprisingly the timing was erratic at best. For 8-10 secs. was stable then bounced higher or lower before stabilizing again then bouncing again, what the... Assumed the distributor was causing issues again, I had rust in it originally and it was hanging up which I corrected but pulling apart didn't see anything of that nature. Of course it hasn't been used for 43 years so maybe it is beyond repair?

Frustrated in the Catskills
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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asiab3
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by asiab3 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:18 pm

wdollie6 wrote:...attempted to retime and surprisingly the timing was erratic at best. For 8-10 secs. was stable then bounced higher or lower before stabilizing again then bouncing again, what the... Assumed the distributor was causing issues again, I had rust in it originally and it was hanging up which I corrected but pulling apart didn't see anything of that nature. Of course it hasn't been used for 43 years so maybe it is beyond repair?
This intrigues me. "The distributor" can't cause issues, but individual parts in the distributor can. Other parts that interface with the distributor can also cause issues.

For example, if your mechanical advance weights don't freely rotate and spring back into position, they could be hanging up when you attempt to adjust idle, then jump down and take your timing with it at seemingly random intervals. I noticed a slight flutter in my tachometer one day last year, and when I pulled over the bus struggled to idle. The static timing was way off, so when I hooked up my light I saw scatter. The points actually broke apart at the pivot and were not longer opening and closing accurately. Drove decently on the highway, though. (See photo... +1 for Kettering ignition systems over electronics...)

Image


Also, your vacuum retard signal could be compromised by a leak or blockage in the vacuum circuits wherever it draws its signal from. This could scatter your timing; is the scatter happening with hoses on? Hoses off? Both?

So while I can't really offer any help yet, I do implore you to consider and eliminate all variables involved in the systems that seem to be giving you trouble.

Feeling frustrated is OK; taking your frustration out on the car is not... :blackeye:
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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wdollie6
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:34 pm

Thanks Robbie for the words of encouragement. When I initially started the engine after the rebuild I definitely had problems with the weights sticking, rust... Tore it apart and cleaned everything up, lubed and reassembled and at that point timing was steady, thought I had that problem solved. You have jogged my memory though because on my 72 Super Beetle I had a similar problem which after checking everything else turned out to be the brand new points, had the same scenario you mention above. Since the ones in this engine are new I will pull them out again and take another look.

You mentioned an ignition system is this a viable alternative?

Also the scattering happened with hoses off, didn't check it with hoses on...

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Amskeptic
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:49 pm

wdollie6 wrote:Thanks Robbie for the words of encouragement. When I initially started the engine after the rebuild I definitely had problems with the weights sticking, rust... Tore it apart and cleaned everything up, lubed and reassembled and at that point timing was steady, thought I had that problem solved. You have jogged my memory though because on my 72 Super Beetle I had a similar problem which after checking everything else turned out to be the brand new points, had the same scenario you mention above. Since the ones in this engine are new I will pull them out again and take another look.

You mentioned an ignition system is this a viable alternative?

Also the scattering happened with hoses off, didn't check it with hoses on...

Wayne
Scattering can also occur from crankshaft end play. Don't be all worried about scatter. People who are getting lost in their diagnostics will sometimes seize on benign symptoms. I am the sort of casual horror show who will adjust the middle of the scatter zone to 28* at 3,400 rpm and say, "yer good".
. . . and you will be.
Colin
( ... of course, I will also suggest that you get back to me after you have adjusted the end play down to .003-.004")
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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