72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Carbs & F.I.

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asiab3
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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by asiab3 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:04 pm

wdollie6 wrote: You mentioned an ignition system is this a viable alternative?
"Kettering ignition system" (also called a Delco system) means we have points and condensors, instead of electronics. Even though the parts failed, they failed gracefully enough to get me safely to a spot where I could swap them out. Modern electronic substitutes usually fail outright, and leave you hanging in the traffic lanes. :pale:

Don't think fixing your issues will be as simple as replacing random parts now... :pirate:
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:20 am

Okay finally found and have sitting on my bench a set of "new to me" dual carbs along with a "new to me" hard line that goes between (my old one had rust holes from mice urine which I repaired, poorly as it turned out). I hopefully can start cleaning these up this weekend to find out what I have in the way of usable parts and pieces. My hope is that the top of the "new" left carb is in good condition, i.e. no cracked CIS tube. If it is then I will be able to swap, assemble, test and hopefully take that out of the troubleshooting equation.

I will also recheck my "kettering" to ensure that everything is working as it should be, as I said I am familiar with lousy "new" points. Anything else other than end play, which I will check as well?

Maybe, just maybe, we'll get this running smoothly, if not when does the 2016 IAC Tour begin, actually either way I will be signing up. With 2 beetles and this bus plenty to focus on. Wonder if I should just leave the engine on the bench until the tour begins?

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:27 pm

wdollie6 wrote:Okay finally found and have sitting on my bench a set of "new to me" dual carbs along with a "new to me" hard line that goes between (my old one had rust holes from mice urine which I repaired, poorly as it turned out). I hopefully can start cleaning these up this weekend to find out what I have in the way of usable parts and pieces. My hope is that the top of the "new" left carb is in good condition, i.e. no cracked CIS tube. If it is then I will be able to swap, assemble, test and hopefully take that out of the troubleshooting equation.

I will also recheck my "kettering" to ensure that everything is working as it should be, as I said I am familiar with lousy "new" points. Anything else other than end play, which I will check as well?

Maybe, just maybe, we'll get this running smoothly, if not when does the 2016 IAC Tour begin, actually either way I will be signing up. With 2 beetles and this bus plenty to focus on. Wonder if I should just leave the engine on the bench until the tour begins?

Wayne

Keep at it, I am happy to swoop in just before you:
a) set it afire
b) drive it in the creek

2016 Itinerary will be up "shortly" . . .
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Tue May 17, 2016 5:25 am

So with my first IAC visit coming up I decided to spend some time going back through my engine to see if I had addressed everything that has been mentioned over the various posts. First I once again reset the float heights as I misread the "tipped forward" comment that Colin had made and actually tipped rearward. Washer change was necessary, both are correct now. In parallel I changed my idle hard pipe as I had repaired rust holes initially with JB weld, which failed, then covered the hole up with tubing and clamps. During this process noted that another hole opened up in the nipple on the passenger side carb, didn't notice that when I initially cleaned it up and painted the manifold... when I was younger used to be observant. Using the remaining good piping from the old cut a new nipple and pressed in place, then reassembled everything (taking out the old was a fun chore). I can definitively say there are no leaks in the idle system at this point (I hope!).

Then because I could I used my new Craftsmen compression tester to test the cylinders cold (I know not the way to do it, but...). The averages of 4 tests were as follows:

#1 143.5 psi, plug was fouled
#2 148.0 psi, plug was fouled
#3 137.5 psi, plug looked good
#4 145.0 psi, plug looked good

Don't know if they will be better, the same or worse warm? I would assume these are reasonable numbers for a rebuilt engine, although a little concerned with #3 as it was consistently lower and had the widest range, 135-144 psi. I will attempt to post pictures of the plugs but may have to do so on the 'other' forums as I haven't been successful as of yet on IAC, concerned with the appearance of #1 & 2 plug as they were black fouled not sure what this might mean.

Other items to re-check before the sage one arrives; points, endplay, anything else???
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Tue May 17, 2016 5:58 am

1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:00 am

Finally with a Colin visit we are putting this thread to bed. As identified in the IAC section Colin's diagnostics identified the Distributor as the culprit of my idle issues, well almost, there were a few other extenuating circumstances as well (too many to mention). Yesterday received my new NOS Distributor (expensive but well worth it) in the mail, installed it last night. Almost immediately it was clear that this was a major contributor to the issues as the engine started quickly and once it came off the chokes, and with a few minor tweaks to the distributor and a 1/4 turn on the Volume screw on the idle system it idled consistently at 925-950 rpm at 5 deg ATDC, wow! I will now go back and officially go through Colin's procedure but many of the adjustments to the carbs and elsewhere were completed during his visit. I now have to evaluate my right side choke as it didn't open for some reason so I adjusted it to stay open during my test run (once the left had opened fully of course). Then on to the #1 cylinder exhaust leak, will need to pull muffler and heat exchanger on right side to change out copper gaskets and retorque...

Timing is good as the bus body work, refurb, overhaul, etc. is nearing completion stages. Still need to reinstall shifting rod and shifter, install replacement relays (received today) and troubleshoot remaining electric. Then, finally, I can install the interior and get Fat Boy rolling, over 2 years in the process, ouch! Still have some cabinet work to do...

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wcfvw69 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:56 pm

wdollie6 wrote:Finally with a Colin visit we are putting this thread to bed. As identified in the IAC section Colin's diagnostics identified the Distributor as the culprit of my idle issues, well almost, there were a few other extenuating circumstances as well (too many to mention). Yesterday received my new NOS Distributor (expensive but well worth it) in the mail, installed it last night. Almost immediately it was clear that this was a major contributor to the issues as the engine started quickly and once it came off the chokes, and with a few minor tweaks to the distributor and a 1/4 turn on the Volume screw on the idle system it idled consistently at 925-950 rpm at 5 deg ATDC, wow! I will now go back and officially go through Colin's procedure but many of the adjustments to the carbs and elsewhere were completed during his visit. I now have to evaluate my right side choke as it didn't open for some reason so I adjusted it to stay open during my test run (once the left had opened fully of course). Then on to the #1 cylinder exhaust leak, will need to pull muffler and heat exchanger on right side to change out copper gaskets and retorque...

Timing is good as the bus body work, refurb, overhaul, etc. is nearing completion stages. Still need to reinstall shifting rod and shifter, install replacement relays (received today) and troubleshoot remaining electric. Then, finally, I can install the interior and get Fat Boy rolling, over 2 years in the process, ouch! Still have some cabinet work to do...

Wayne
Good news! Curious as to which NOS distributor you purchased? What's the Bosch number on it? With timing it to 5ATDC, it's a DVDA.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by asiab3 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:53 am

wcfvw69 wrote: With timing it to 5ATDC, it's a DVDA.
Yes, as the Gods of Physics decree, the retarded idle really gives a nice "zing" to the throttle response since you then need the Central Idle Circuit flowing so much air to keep up. Smooooooooth transitions ahoy! Just like our DVDA setups, but with an entire extra plumbing circuit and far more finesse... :drunken:

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:48 pm

Wait Robbie, so if you install the correct, German engineered parts on our old VW's, the cars work as designed? Shut the front door! :)

PS., I'm still basking in my silky smooth, tight, easy to transition into each gear bus. Amazing what a $15 dollar NOS shift plate can do in embarrassing the Chinese POS plate in quality and design. I think my shifter would give Colins 70' bus a run for it's money in it's "like new" shifting..
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by asiab3 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:36 am

wcfvw69 wrote:Wait Robbie, so if you install the correct, German engineered parts on our old VW's, the cars work as designed? Shut the front door! :)
I have never driven a factory dual-carb bus without the matching distributor. I have never driven a factory dual carb bus that did not behave after a good faith effort at Colin's adjustment procedure. :cheers:

So wdollie6, is this testing all done on your "engine stand," or have you driven this bus yet?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:46 am

Robbie,

The engine is still on the stand waiting for some final work on the body; heater tube replacement (done just have to seal it up), wiring final check, and oh, yeah wet sanding and final coat. On Saturday while the engine was still on the stand (a balancing act for sure...) I pulled off the muffler and heat exchangers to change out the copper gaskets with a tool of Colin's making (worked great). Annealed the new gaskets, sanded flat and installed. Wow what a difference this engine not only now runs great but it also sounds great. The only thing I need to find is locking exhaust nuts as two of my brass nuts had vibrated off the studs and were sitting in the tins below, I checked local hardware stores and they had nothing. I'm going to check the FLAPs today as they aren't open on Sundays.

To answer an earlier question, the distributor on the engine was the original DVDA distributor and the NOS replacement is the same part number, the Bosch part number is 0 231 137 005, VW number is 021 905 205 E.

Finally will install the interior in the bus at least partially, get the camper top on (been ready to install for over a year; repainted, new canvas) and then maybe, just maybe I'll be able to get this on the highway. Now if the business and the soon expected new grandbaby (first), don't get in the way...

The longest 'drive' I've had is the tow from the woods to the shop, maybe 5 miles and that was almost two years ago. I am drooling thinking of Fat Boy on the road. Mean while I have been enjoying our Super Beetle Convertible (another rust belt save), after Colin's magic touch it has newly found pep and energy. My wife has been insistent that this car finds its way to our place in Florida, it is almost ready, although need to change the fuel fill pipe (I've had a kit with pipe, rubbers and clamps for over a year...) and attempt to fix the fuel gauge as it runs from 1/2 tank to empty regardless of fuel status (will have to read up on that, I much prefer the mechanics of my 66 beetle).

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: 72 Westy, 1700 Dual Carb, Another One Won't Idle!

Post by wdollie6 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:22 am

Also forgot to mention that Colin suggested that I find a source for the idle jet cutoffs that matched the originals which had a '55' stamped on them. Had to replace as they were completely rusted with the wire connection completely gone. I had originally replaced with non-marked new ones from BD but we weren't confident they were providing enough fuel as the engine appeared starved. After searching found the correct ones at Bughaus, a supplier I hadn't worked with before, impressed with their service definitely will use again.

While I can't be sure that there was much difference I was able to tighten these marked with 55 and successfully start and idle the engine without having to unloosen them at all. Previously with consideration for the bad distributor we had to leave the old-new (unmarked) cutoffs slightly loose to get the engine to idle. Thought that would complete the story as they may or may not have played an important role.

Wayne
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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