'78 Westy Random Stall/No Start?

VWGirl · Post by **VWGirl** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:08 pm

So my bus has been down for about a year due to a leaky tank. My husband and I replaced the tank last week and I drove it all week with very little trouble. By very little I mean that I drove it about 10 miles and then it randomly stalled on me and wouldn't start. I had a friend help me push the bus out of the roadway and I was going to try to see what the problem was, but it started just fine after we pushed it out of the way. I put another 75 miles on it and thought all was good and that it was just a bad filter.

So last night I was driving from Chattanooga to Atlanta which is about a 100 mile drive, I made it about 25 miles and the bus lost power on the interstate. I immediately pulled over and shut everything down. I thought about what had happened before and thought perhaps it would start again. Sure enough it did.

So I get another 5 miles down the road and the same thing happens, only this time it wouldn't start back up. I ended up having it towed home as there was no way I could work on it where it was.

The bus is a stock '78 federal emission Westy with all stock FI components less the EGR. Perhaps coincidence, but all three times this happened it was dark out so the lights were on if that makes a difference.

Today I changed the filter yet again and also added a clear filter coming out of the tank. We cut open the square stock filter afterward and found that there was really not much as far as debris inside it. I have pictures... but you'd get way more dirt off my parking brake handle than was in that filter. The new clear filter under the tank is showing me some clear gas. I have only driven it around the neighborhood since installing it, but since the old filter was as clean as it was I don't expect it to pick up much.

Also, when I was waiting for a tow last night I tried to start the bus probably a dozen times with no luck. AFTER replacing the filter today I tried about 6 times and it wouldn't start. Since it wouldn't start I rechecked that I had fuel pressure at the check point on the rail, rechecked my point gap and then went to check spark... when I had my husband start it for me to check the spark it started up on three cylinders.

Coincidence? Is something else really wrong here? Any ideas? I do not think that as little debris that was in the filter would cause it to stop up, unless there is something I am missing that is clogged.

dtrumbo · Post by **dtrumbo** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:52 pm

When it dies, do the oil, alt and EGR light come on? When you try to start it again, does the engine crank and not start or does it just do nothing? The reason I ask is I'm wondering if this could be electrical rather than fuel related.

Post by **Sluggo** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:05 pm

dtrumbo wrote:I'm wondering if this could be electrical rather than fuel related.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

VWGirl · Post by **VWGirl** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:33 pm

dtrumbo wrote:When it dies, do the oil, alt and EGR light come on? When you try to start it again, does the engine crank and not start or does it just do nothing? The reason I ask is I'm wondering if this could be electrical rather than fuel related.

The first time this happened I think two of them came on. The second time nothing came on. The third time all three came on.

When I try to start it again it cranks but won't start.

The first time when it happened, it only sat for maybe 5 minutes before it started again. I immediately thought of the fuel filter because I didn't change it after it sat for a year because it was new and I figured I would change it after a few miles anyway. Nothing would have had a chance to cool down, so I thought maybe pushing it had caused whatever might have clogged the filter to come loose. The second time it started up the first try. The third time it would not start after sitting 30 minutes, after being towed 70 miles, or after sitting over night, so I do not think that it is heat related.

It *could* be fuel related if it is somehow being cut off after the filter, or whatever is clogging the filter is not able to be seen in the filter element or gas. Could the fuel pump intermittently not work like this? The fuel pump is 4 years and 40k miles old

I really have no idea what is wrong with it. It works most of the time, I just don't want it to stop working in an unsafe place. I'd like to take it about 100 miles from here next weekend, and to FL 500 miles away in November. I have driven it way further than this plenty of times, but I have never had an issue with it before.

dtrumbo · Post by **dtrumbo** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:22 am

VWGirl wrote:The first time this happened I think two of them came on. The second time nothing came on. The third time all three came on.

Try this. It will take all of thirty seconds so you don't have much to lose. At the base of the plastic outer housing of your steering column, just under the ignition switch are three half-moon shaped black connectors. Make sure all of them are pushed on (up toward the steering wheel) good and snug. One of these connectors is for your turn signals, one is for your windshield wipers and the third is for your ignition switch. If the connector for your switch is hanging by a thread, you'll have an intermittent connection. The fact that on the second incident you had no instrument warning lights implies that you may have an intermittent electrical issue.

As stated, this fix takes all of thirty seconds and if that was it, yippee! If not, I'd still be inclined to think electrical rather than fuel. Check to make sure your condenser is screwed down tight on the distributor, plug and coil wires on good and solid, etc. Let us know and good luck.

VWGirl · Post by **VWGirl** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:49 pm

I checked the ignition wires, everything is intact.

I drove the bus 20 some odd miles today off and on and couldn't recreate the problem, but learned there is another VW mechanic on the other side of my loop! Good to know I have help if I need it!

Gypsie · Post by **Gypsie** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:38 pm

Give all your fuses a little twist back and forth a few times to help improve connectivity.

Since we're on the electrical path, give your AFM connector a good push on. I've had mine sittin' all cattywompus for miles on end with intermittent issues 'til it was re-secured. (DOH!)

chitwnvw · Post by **chitwnvw** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:34 pm

Double relay or series resistor. Just a thought.

Gypsie · Post by **Gypsie** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:25 am

Masy as well just check all them thar connections in the engine bay and clean, tighten and assure good crimping. you can clean out the multi-pin connections with electric parts cleaner. It'll blow out any grime and improve connectivity. Give the blades a swipe with emery cloth (or a matchbook striker).

Keep us in the loop.

vdubyah73 · Post by **vdubyah73** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:15 pm

Kink in the fuel line? Improperly plumbed vent lines? You had the tank out for replacement, so that is where I'd start. Does it stall like it runs out of gas or just shut off?

VWGirl · Post by **VWGirl** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:41 am

vdubyah73 wrote:Kink in the fuel line? Improperly plumbed vent lines? You had the tank out for replacement, so that is where I'd start. Does it stall like it runs out of gas or just shut off?

There are no kinks in the fuel line. The vent lines and vacuum lines are as they should be. It stalls like it no longer has any power. I'm not sure how you'd differentiate that it stalled like it ran out of gas. I've run out of gas in different cars before, and they stall out differently. I've never run out of gas in the bus, so I'm not sure how exactly that one works. I mean it doesn't shut off like the battery is disconnected if that is what you mean. The lights stay on.

This has happened a grand total of 3 times in 200 miles, which is 3 times too many for me. It is completely random. It does not matter if it is day or night, or if I just started the bus or have driven it 30 miles (it stalled out once at 30 miles down the interstate, but i drove it 40 miles around town the other day and was fine).

Gas is still coming out clear. We're heading out tomorrow on a 100+ mile trip.

Randy in Maine · Post by **Randy in Maine** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:17 am

Did you ever check out the Temp Sensor II?

Did you ever do the fuel pressure test?

Results of both please.

VWGirl · Post by **VWGirl** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:08 pm

Temp sensor II is fine. I still don't have a pressure tester.

While volume and pressure are not the same thing, for what I am trying to figure out I don't see how it's going to make much difference. If I have an intermittent pressure issue causing my bus to die completely, what are the odds that I am going to see that on the gauge once I get it?

I think it's been another 40 trouble-free miles since my last post.

Gypsie · Post by **Gypsie** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:59 pm

VWGirl wrote:If I have an intermittent pressure issue causing my bus to die completely, what are the odds that I am going to see that on the gauge once I get it?

I think it's been another 40 trouble-free miles since my last post.

You are correct that if there is something blocking flow 'intermittently' you may not see it when you do your pressure test.

Volume testing does not require a gauge, just a watch with a second hand and a 2 liter bottle. Disconnect the tank return (block the tank side) and point the hose into the bottle. Run the pump for the specified time and note the amount delivered to the bottle. How much fuel did you get? A tank restriction may allow you to come up to pressure but not allow enough fuel to be delivered to the injectors (rare). The dying engine could happen when the fuel gets completely blocked when debris sloshes over the opening (common with a bad tank).

You could try to duplicate tank blockage by activating the fuel pump manually and rocking the bus a bit to see if you can get something to flow over the outlet (if there is something to flow over it). the sound of the pump will change as if it is struggling.

When it dies, does it ever seem like it is dying and sputtering back to life then dying again (ie blockage, no blockage, blockage again)?

Though you have already deduced that the tank has no debris, soooo...

I too, am leaning toward something electrical. Have you confirmed that your ECU grounds are secured (Located under the intake plenum as I recall). The case gets pretty hot and if they are loose and expand enough, you could get a no ground sitch...

Check the connection at the series resistor block and double relay.

Good luck on your trip (bring your Bentley and tools...).

vdubyah73 · Post by **vdubyah73** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:24 pm

Stalling like it's running out of gas would give at least some warning such as hiccups and a misfire or a no power at full throttle but may idle ok. Kinda a slow cut out vs a sudden "just ain't running".

"Just ain't running" could be an electrical problem related to gas. Since you had the tank out you must have at least jostled the fuel pump. Check the wires at the fuel pump connections under the bus. Might be loose? If the pump shuts off intermittently, it would give the impression of electrical because the fuel pressure is simply not there as soon as the pump stops working. Coasting to the side of the road may have jostled everything just enough to get things working again.

Itinerant Air-Cooled

Itinerant Air-Cooled

'78 Westy Random Stall/No Start?

'78 Westy Random Stall/No Start?