'76 Westy Engine Makes Horrible Sounds At Startup

[upnorthman]

You should all know that I am an engine dummy and I have a lot to learn, a lot!
I noticed that she started rough last summer and I thought it was the ground strap on the tranny. However, when I did the compression test I thought it was strange that it was pretty hard to turn the engine over by hand (I can't remember what cyl. # right now). The belt would just spin on the fan pulley! Well no biggie it started and ran good. I don't really travel very far from home for camping.
So this spring after an oil change, I went out for a twenty minute drive and brought it back. The next time I started it there was a bad noise, I don't know how to describe it other than an internal grinding in the engine that slowly went away after a few minutes of running. The next time I tried to start it there was just a whirr, whirr, whirr and then stop. It would turn but you could tell the starter was having a hard time turning the engine over. I talked to a few people and the general thought is that the issue may be the bearings. I also thought maybe, just maybe the starter is bad and staying engaged?
I was hoping to make it through one more summer of short trips before a rebuild.

Notes that may help:
Compression test from last fall.
1: 76
2: 125
3: 110
4: 130
Rebuilt head about 5 yrs ago (coming from the bad side with #1)
It sat for three years because the brakes were bad (P.O.)
New battery
Starter was rebuilt 8 or so years ago
I did not do a squirt test (Randy In Maine)
I did get a leak down tester (I have not used it yet as I thought it would be better to get it running)
Oil looked clean (no metal that I could see)

Bearings? Any advice of things to look at before I just go and pull it?
I just want one more short summer out of this engine.....arrrrrrrrrrrg
Thank you for reading

[Amskeptic]

I went out for a twenty minute drive and brought it back. The next time I started it there was a bad noise, I don't know how to describe it other than an internal grinding in the engine that slowly went away after a few minutes of running. The next time I tried to start it there was just a whirr, whirr, whirr and then stop. It would turn but you could tell the starter was having a hard time turning the engine over.
I also thought maybe, just maybe the starter is bad and staying engaged?

Pull the ground terminal off the battery and pull the starter and look for metallic flakes. That would reinforce your hunch. Re-install the starter.

Can you push-start the car (ignition on, two pumps of the accelerator, down hill 3rd gear, clutch out then right back in when the engine fires up)? If it fires up nicely, again, that would suggest the starter. If bad noises occur upon start, shut it down immediately.

Compression test from last fall.
1: 76
2: 125
3: 110
4: 130
Oil looked clean (no metal that I could see)

Bearings? Any advice of things to look at before I just go and pull it?

See above. Sounds like it should be simple based on the successful drive preceding the recalcitrant belligerence.

[upnorthman]

Thanks.

I will pull the starter on Monday (or tonight pending time).

The down-hill trick may be very difficult.
I will post back results of the starter pull.

[Amskeptic]

The down-hill trick may be very difficult.
I will post back results of the starter pull.

I will be waiting. . . push-starting is a VW 101 skill, you can do it out of parking lots, off curbs, even on the level if you are young and strong.
It just takes a little momentum. Please do not attempt it if you are not mostly-certain that the engine will start willingly. Engines love push starts because the coil gets fresh juice without the starter pulling down the voltage.
Colin

[upnorthman]

I am still not to the root of the problem. I suppose you could say I wimped out, but I did not give up. I started to pull the starter and I got slightly frustrated. (I have too many things going on) I forgot about the time I pulled it in a gravel drive in '94! How did I do it? As Bentley indicated, I had no one to hold the bolt in the engine compartment. Blah, blah I will go at it again when I can this week yet.

HOWEVER, while I was down there picking stuff out of my eyes I put a brief charge on the battery. When I was about to go inside I thought I would give 'er a try. It started after a couple whirr whirrs. The sound of grinding was not there at all. It had the lifter clatter so I went for a drive. It ran like normal but I still want to know why the hard cranking. I shut it down and re-started it twice with no problems? I also still need to learn how to check the points, set the timing, dwell, etc.

So no starter pull results yet. Things happen slow around these parts.

[Amskeptic]

It started after a couple whirr whirrs. The sound of grinding was not there at all. It had the lifter clatter so I went for a drive. It ran like normal but I still want to know why the hard cranking. I shut it down and re-started it twice with no problems? I also still need to learn how to check the points, set the timing, dwell, etc.

So we can dispense with a number of possibilities and say that your starter may be feeling a little punk and appreciates a good charge. Go practice a few push starts. Here's how:

Scope the environment for traffic and slope.
(you want none of the former a bit of the latter)
Turn on ignition and start pushing the car to get it rolling.
(no spaz allowed, do not run over your foot, do not allow the car to run away from you, *do not leap into the driver's seat and bash your brains out on the door opening)
Leap into the driver's seat* and quickly dab the accelerator if you have a carburetor-equipped engine, step on the clutch, select 3rd gear, and let the clutch out.
(usually, you only let the clutch out enough to get the engine to turn over, you will feel it slow the car down but don't kill all of your momentum)
Put the clutch right back in and feather the accelerator as necessary to keep the engine running.
Colin

[upnorthman]

Video

now you can even hear the sounds I speak of!

My initial thoughts are not good, like splitting the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ-9VTxbo50

[upnorthman]

Is this great sound bad enough that I should not be out push starting?
Colin I've read some of your posts about engine noises, the difference between upper and lower engine problems. I can't seem to determine if this is an upper or lower problem? If it is an upper problem can I drive it for a half hour without the engine seizing up?

The wife wants a camper this weekend and the property is 20 minutes away.

However, the tent is ready!

[upnorthman]

NO WAY am I taking this thing out camping! I just drove it around the big block and of course it sounds worse.
Yup, the lovely sounds are just increasing in intensity.

No bus for the summer

I will have to drink lots of ice cold beverages this weekend

[upnorthman]

Anyone else have a listen? If this is a bearing, it would be nice if it was a main bearing, that would be easy right? I could fix that and drive it for the rest of the summer! Then do the engine in the fall.

The sound sounds like it comes from the upper/middle area of the engine. aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrg!

It seems to me that the main bearing (if going) would cause mass oil leaks from what I read, no?

[vwlover77]

I think you're confusing the main bearing with the main seal. A bad main seal causes big oil leaks. If a bearing is going bad (and something is seriously wrong by the sound of your engine), then the case must be split open and everything gone through.

[upnorthman]

Confused, you bet! The case splitting has been in my mind, but I'm trying to suppress that thought! It would be great if I actually had time to get my bus running within the summer months!

[Amskeptic]

I just listened to your engine. I can't vouch for the aural fidelity, but it does not sound like internal engine. It sounds like some horrible alternator bearing or some contact noise. Have you been able to localize the sound? Pulling off the fan belt and maybe the timing scale and fan guard and even the fan itself is a way to remove variables. If you know it is an internal sound deep within the engine, leave it be.

[windswept]

Hi there.

I am new on here, and I am a Limey, so you may wish to ignore my ramblings. However, listening to your video, at around 33 seconds there is a screeching noise, which only happens once, but could be a clue.
To me, that sounds similar to the small pinion gear on the splines of the starter motor.

Is it possible that the pinion is not disengaging after start-up, and the starter motor is thus being seriously over-driven by the engine?
If so, then a new starter & pinion could be a relatively simple fix. (assuming the flywheel teeth are intact)

Hope this helps
Windswept.

[upnorthman]

The sound does sound internal. I tried the broomstick trick. It does not go away with warm up.

It has a hard time turning over like there is a great amount of resistance as the engine spins. What kind of engine related items could cause that rubbing? Nothing appears to be rubbing at least externally.

When I was 'trying' to do a valve adjustment I noticed that when cranking the engine to find TDC it would resist at a certain point and the belt would spin on the fan without 'catching'. If I got a running start so to speak I could get past the point of resistance.

I have still not pulled my starter!! I suppose I need to do this to rule it out eh?