engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

blauvelt
I'm New!
Status: Offline

engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by blauvelt » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:01 am

Morning,

Posting on behalf of my father, he will be installing a new engine wiring harness and an ignition harness on his '82 from this gentleman:

http://www.kyleautomotivespecialties.com/products

This is the last stop in a long line of repairs. Is there anyone near San Diego that could help trouble shoot the system once installed?

Thanks,

Doug

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by asiab3 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:34 am

Hi Doug, and welcome to the forums!

Is there electrical trouble before installation? Or are you anticipating trouble?

Good luck with the installation,
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

blauvelt
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by blauvelt » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:42 am

Good Day Robbie,

Yes...recap from the samba, which pointed me here:

That being said, the source of discontent is a 1982 Vanagon (SoCal smog airhead) that he loves dearly, but is at his wits end with it dying on him, at 66 years old he really doesn't need to be pushing his vanagon down the freeway. Below is a summary of the pertinent repair work to date, any help in figuring out what it's ailment is will be most appreciated.

For clarification, I am more inclined towards british contrivances, but can translate krautspeak as needed.

Prior to 248k miles:

Full top end overhaul at ~175k miles: barrels, pistons, heads, valves, all injectors.

~248k miles: replaced muffler & o2 sensor (bosch US prod.) tested o2 sensor w/mulitmeter after installation; appeared to cycle normally.

~250k miles: progressive loss of high end power, repeated cutting out at freeway speeds.

~251k miles: Burnt valve, replaced head (diagnose as o2 sensor failure to lean at full speed). Shop that did work closed immediately after. (Randy's VW in OB). After 1 week of operations, vehicle started acting up w/ poor performance at speed and cold starting issues.

As the vanagon would not run worth a $@#! he took it to a new shop, where the below was performed:

1. overhauled fuel system
a. Dropped and cleaned gas tank
b. replaced vapor and fuel lines as far as fuel pump
c. new fuel filler neck
d. new fuel filters
e. tested fuel rail pressure and fuel pump delivery - did not test return valve

2. Replaced vacuum advance and retard on distributer - had been returned with retard side blocked out due to partial failure (new incorrect unit installed w/only vacuum advance not vacuum advance and retard).

3. Rebuilt old distributer - upper shaft bearing failure (used parts)

4. Replaced hall control unit & idle stabilizer (new parts w/correct part numbers)

5. Replaced head temp sensor (failed) new unit has wrong warm up spec, required custom heat sink.

6. Replaced ignition switch - car ran progressively worse through out cold start/ warm up very difficult: repeatedly died and would not restart for 10 to 20 minutes (tested: no spark)

~253k miles: car fails completely. No spark: sent ECU for rebuild and was returned as non-repairable. No T&I report included.

1. Purchased used ECU, dead unit. Returned.

2. Purchased used ECU: ran for 5 days...
Having not been home for almost 2 years, I was home the day we picked it from the shop. Car started and idled nicely during warm up. Drove to the shell station, filled up with gas and proceeded to the freeway. At medium shift points there was a notable lack of power. On the fwy the engine would randomly miss and run roughly. Drove the car for around town for the rest of the day. I went to start it at around the 24 hours mark and it died during warm up (about 2 minutes) just f@*%ing died and will not start since then.


So the above details the situation. At this time the car still has its original wiring loom, but basically everything else has been replaced.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... highlight=
asiab3 wrote:Hi Doug, and welcome to the forums!

Is there electrical trouble before installation? Or are you anticipating trouble?

Good luck with the installation,
Robbie

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:06 pm

blauvelt wrote:Good Day Robbie,

~253k miles: car fails completely. No spark: sent ECU for rebuild and was returned as non-repairable. No T&I report included.
Purchased used ECU: ran for 5 days...
medium shift points there was a notable lack of power.
I went to start it at around the 24 hours mark and it died during warm up (about 2 minutes) just f@*%ing died and will not start since then.
Not good. How long can you hold out for your definitive fix-it appointment?
How mechanically talented are you as far as ensuring ground paths and wire terminal integrity?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

blauvelt
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by blauvelt » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:38 am

Good Morning Colin,

The car has been in the shop for 3 months (my father is now using my '49 MG TC as his daily...got to love San Diego weather), so no real rush. Both new looms will be here mid-January. My father is very competent as to electricity and is overly fond of his multimeter, where as I deem it to be akin to black magic.

I suggested that he install the looms instead of the shop.

Thanks,

Doug


Amskeptic wrote:
blauvelt wrote:Good Day Robbie,

~253k miles: car fails completely. No spark: sent ECU for rebuild and was returned as non-repairable. No T&I report included.
Purchased used ECU: ran for 5 days...
medium shift points there was a notable lack of power.
I went to start it at around the 24 hours mark and it died during warm up (about 2 minutes) just f@*%ing died and will not start since then.
Not good. How long can you hold out for your definitive fix-it appointment?
How mechanically talented are you as far as ensuring ground paths and wire terminal integrity?
Colin

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by asiab3 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:22 am

I'm a little lost when you say ignition harness. I understand what Kyle's fuel injection harness is and, having seen one, I can attest to its quality construction. What is the ignition harness?

The multimeter is one of my three favorite tools for fuel injection diagnosis. The others are a fuel pressure gauge and careful observation.
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

blauvelt
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by blauvelt » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:58 am

The ignition system, of which I assume to mean (my father ordered) everything from the key back to the...where ever that goes. I will seek clarification. Good to know that Kyle makes good stuff!!
asiab3 wrote:I'm a little lost when you say ignition harness. I understand what Kyle's fuel injection harness is and, having seen one, I can attest to its quality construction. What is the ignition harness?

The multimeter is one of my three favorite tools for fuel injection diagnosis. The others are a fuel pressure gauge and careful observation.
Robbie

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by asiab3 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:17 am

On Point #6 above, did a contributing human try driving the car with a (long and fused) wire from the battery positive post directly to the coil positive terminal?

A no-spark condition resulted in replacing the ECU? I can not fathom what the diagnostic path here was, unless there is information missing. The spark signal triggers the ECU, not the other way around. Missing ignition signal = no spray from the injectors.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

User avatar
SlowLane
IAC Addict!
Location: Livermore, CA
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by SlowLane » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:26 pm

asiab3 wrote:I'm a little lost when you say ignition harness. I understand what Kyle's fuel injection harness is and, having seen one, I can attest to its quality construction. What is the ignition harness?
There is actually an ignition harness on the California air-cooled Vanagons (which have factory electronic ignition). It ties together the ignition module, the idle stabilizer, the Hall-effect sensor in the distributor and the ignition coil. It has a single intersection point with the FI harness at the coil.

I don't know if Kyle sells the ignition harness as well. Most of the connectors on it are unique, so he would need to do it on an exchange basis just to have enough core parts.

I am using one of these factory electronic systems on my van, having modified the Cali distributor to use the advance-only vacuum can from my original points-and-condenser distributor (an easy swap). It works like a charm. At least as good as the Crane Cams XR700 that I was using previously.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by asiab3 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:34 pm

That's what I thought, but 20 minutes sleuthing around Kyle's site lead me nowhere. In that case, if the stock components are present, than installation shouldn't be too difficult.
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

blauvelt
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by blauvelt » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:28 pm

It seems to be almost a custom order, Kyle knew what it was and agreed to build it.

So you "disconnected" (shut off) the advance/retard on the distributor? I know my father had a bitch of a time with the distributer and it was worn out, he ended up building one out of 3.
SlowLane wrote:
asiab3 wrote:I'm a little lost when you say ignition harness. I understand what Kyle's fuel injection harness is and, having seen one, I can attest to its quality construction. What is the ignition harness?
There is actually an ignition harness on the California air-cooled Vanagons (which have factory electronic ignition). It ties together the ignition module, the idle stabilizer, the Hall-effect sensor in the distributor and the ignition coil. It has a single intersection point with the FI harness at the coil.

I don't know if Kyle sells the ignition harness as well. Most of the connectors on it are unique, so he would need to do it on an exchange basis just to have enough core parts.

I am using one of these factory electronic systems on my van, having modified the Cali distributor to use the advance-only vacuum can from my original points-and-condenser distributor (an easy swap). It works like a charm. At least as good as the Crane Cams XR700 that I was using previously.

User avatar
SlowLane
IAC Addict!
Location: Livermore, CA
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by SlowLane » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:34 pm

blauvelt wrote:It seems to be almost a custom order, Kyle knew what it was and agreed to build it.
That is really good to know. Thanks.
blauvelt wrote: So you "disconnected" (shut off) the advance/retard on the distributor? I know my father had a bitch of a time with the distributer and it was worn out, he ended up building one out of 3.
I built one out of 2, or 3, or 2 1/2, can't quite remember. :blackeye:

I used a Cali distributor core which had all the electronic goodies, but the advance springs were toast, so I swapped in the weights and springs from my badly-worn OE points-and-condenser dizzy. Then, following aircooledchris' advice, I also replaced the advance/retard can on the Cali dizzy with the advance-only vacuum can from the other dizzy.

I was pretty much forced to do it this way because the Cali smog rules say that the idle timing needs to be within 3 degrees of the spec on the sticker. My sticker (Federal spec) says 7.5 degrees BTDC. Cali spec is 5 degrees ATDC because of the vacuum retard. So I had to figure out a way to keep the factory timing, but not have a dual-vacuum can with the retard side just hanging open for the smog guy to key off of.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

blauvelt
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by blauvelt » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Update:

New ignition and engine bay wiring harness installed and rebuilt CPU. Vanagon cold starts nicely but dies after 1 to 2 minutes and will not start for approximately 2 hours, then it will start right up and run 1 to 2 minutes...repeat.

Plan of action is remove the head heat temp sensor (which is a newer spec w/a brass heat sink threaded in) and try to start the car and see if it will keep running.

Thoughts?

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by asiab3 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:22 pm

I think our engines appreciate a slight enrichment to start when cold. If they die soon after, I would imagine the mixture is getting too lean too quickly. If you disconnect the head sensor (TS2) and leave it disconnected, it will tell the ECU to provide more fuel. If you ground the TS2 wire and it dies instantly, it says the mixture is too lean. I would look for a discreet vacuum leak in this case.

I can't say anymore without looking at the car.

I'll be in San Diego next week, and I'll look at the car if you'd like, just for fun?
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

blauvelt
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: engine & ignition wiring harness replacement '82 Vanagon - help in San Diego?

Post by blauvelt » Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:37 am

Good Morning Robbie,

Passed on your comments. The car is currently in the shop, so I don't know how much access my father can get you. I am going to send you his number.

Thank you for all your help.

-Doug
asiab3 wrote:I think our engines appreciate a slight enrichment to start when cold. If they die soon after, I would imagine the mixture is getting too lean too quickly. If you disconnect the head sensor (TS2) and leave it disconnected, it will tell the ECU to provide more fuel. If you ground the TS2 wire and it dies instantly, it says the mixture is too lean. I would look for a discreet vacuum leak in this case.

I can't say anymore without looking at the car.

I'll be in San Diego next week, and I'll look at the car if you'd like, just for fun?
Robbie

Post Reply