Hot start relays and another dependable option

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ainokea
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Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by ainokea » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:26 pm

So, your 30 or 40 year old engine doesn't turn over when turning the key, or maybe it just clicks or growls but no start persists. One might replace the battery, the starter, and sometimes, the generator or alternator, and of course the ignition switch. All this without correcting the problem. The solution is to wire in a hot start relay. NOT!! The problem may just be a tired, old, resistance infected, 10 gauge wire labeled # 30 on the ignition switch. Let's say this is a 65 Beetle, the ignition switch will have 3 wires connected to the back side, 15 / 54, 50, and 30. The power to terminal 30 is what provides power to terminals 50 and 15 / 54 to start the engine when the key is turned. Due to age and the resistance built up in circuit 30, it cannot deliver enough voltage to 50 or 15 / 54 to start the engine. The reason is because the power to ign. sw. 30 comes out of the voltage regulator and goes to the light sw. from there it goes to the fuse panel and finally to the ign. sw. My solution to this is to remove the wire to ign. sw. 30 from the fuse panel, then run a single strand of 10 gauge wire from the positive battery terminal directly to ign. sw. terminal 30. This eliminates all resistance in the start circuit, 6 volt systems will have much better starting as long as the battery is good. This procedure is a basic method that can be adapted to types 1, 2, and 3. On the 73 models, there is another point of resistance that is easily remedied, with a yellow butt connector. under the back seat, left side, there is a 10 gauge red with black stripe that is fed into a plastic double male connector, then another 10 gauge red wire that goes to the starter terminal 50. Cut both wires, strip them and apply the butt connector, I solved my own hot start problem this way. This has turned into a long winded affair, none the less, I hope this might help someone get down the road.

71whitewesty
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by 71whitewesty » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:05 pm

Ainokia, I've been enjoying your posts. This one is interesting to me because I am experiencing a starting gemlin and I have been avoiding the hot start relay route.
When Colin comes this year I'm going to have him help me with this. We worked on it last year and clipped the power to the stereo thinking it was the problem but it still persists.
My symptoms are;
* every other time I go to start it it just "clicks". 2nd try usually starts it fine.
* it turns over slightly sluggish as if the battery is just a bit low but it's not.

I've replaced everything in the last year, battery, trans ground strap, both pos and neg battery cables, starter, generator, regulator (even a new engine) and none made any difference. I have about 500 miles of short trips (less than an hour) of local driving on it with all the new parts on it since Colin was here and it hasn't left me on the side of the road yet (but it did pre stereo clip).
Running a direct wire to the ignition switch sounds like its worth a try.

ainokea
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by ainokea » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:10 pm

You might be able to run a heavy gauge wire, 8 or 10 gauge, from the negative battery terminal to the bottom starter stud, I have found that this does help in some cases and is a far easier install. The age of these vehicles even with a new trans ground strap may not be a total solution but a direct ground might be for the start circuit. Ainokea

ainokea
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by ainokea » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:26 pm

An after thought: You mentioned the stereo. What I have found from the days of tape players up til today's C/D players, is that something goes goofy with the units memory and it will draw enough current over night to weaken the battery and some times kill an older battery. pull the deck out and look at the harness. Red is power to the head, yellow is memory, some units will not work at all without the memory being connected to power when turning it on. The solution is to connect both power and memory together and splice both into the units power source. This removes any current draw but allows the stereo to be played without presets Ainokea.

Jivermo
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by Jivermo » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:59 pm

I put that hot start relay in my bus 2 years ago. Easy installation, and no further starting issue at all. I got the one that the independent guy sells on the Samba. Nice piece of work.

ainokea
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by ainokea » Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:51 pm

I think because of the length of wiring and under vehicle work involved, a hot start relay may be an easier way to go. But on an early 60's bug, I have had occasion to replace a hot start system simply because the wiring was shot. I do not say my method is the best, I do say it is, "Just another method," to be considered in this war on hot start wiring resistance. Ainokea

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:01 am

71whitewesty wrote:Ainokia, I've been enjoying your posts. This one is interesting to me because I am experiencing a starting gemlin and I have been avoiding the hot start relay route.
When Colin comes this year I'm going to have him help me with this. We worked on it last year and clipped the power to the stereo thinking it was the problem but it still persists.
My symptoms are;
* every other time I go to start it it just "clicks". 2nd try usually starts it fine.
* it turns over slightly sluggish as if the battery is just a bit low but it's not.

I've replaced everything in the last year, battery, trans ground strap, both pos and neg battery cables, starter, generator, regulator (even a new engine) and none made any difference. I have about 500 miles of short trips (less than an hour) of local driving on it with all the new parts on it since Colin was here and it hasn't left me on the side of the road yet (but it did pre stereo clip).
Running a direct wire to the ignition switch sounds like its worth a try.
Only as an experiment!

Do NOT start porcupining your bus with festoons of brightly colored wires snaking all over the damn place directly from the battery. That is called "unprotected".

Do NOT start adding blobs of grounding all over the damn place either, I have seen that crap too many times. If you have a clean braided ground strap on the transaxle (both ends), and a clean ground cable (both ends) and the starter is installed on a clean magnesium flange on the transaxle, you are done. Your problem is elsewhere and it may be subtle.

In INVITE you to experiment, however. Do not leap to premature conclusions. Please share your results.

This response is directed at monocoque +frame bus electrical issues.
The 6 volt bug is a different animal with the body bolted onto a pan with a big rubber insulating seal.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

71whitewesty
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by 71whitewesty » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:51 am

I agree that it is subtle mystery grounding somewhere on this bus. I'll keep poking around at it. I did a lot of that last spring to no real avail. I have been driving it locally every nice day lately and so far it gets me around and back.

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wcfvw69
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by wcfvw69 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:10 pm

I agree with Colin in that the German electrical engineers were pretty smart. I'm not a fan of band-aids in electrical circuits. I like to do the troubleshoots and find the cause of the issue. Hot start relay's are spoken about alot. All three of my VW's have no hot start relay's in them though my 69 has a new electrical harness installed during the restoration. The only thing that I think they can help with is not overloading the cheap, aftermarket ignition switches.

I read alot about "old" wiring causing issues in our classic VW's. Unless the plastic insulation on the wire is cracking and falling off, I've found the wires and harnesses to be perfectly fine. It's always the connectors that have caused the issues in my VW's. My 67 bug harness is original and it will out live me with no issues. I did however clean up all the connectors/fuse box terminals, grounds, etc..

When I see people on some forms suggest the harnesses should be replaced due to age, I chuckle. Why? I've been around a lot of 70+ year old world war II aircraft. They have miles and miles of original electrical harnesses in them that haven't caused any issues. The same goes for all the hydraulic lines that are still in use on those aircraft.

Colin recently posted how he cleaned up his terminals and fuse box in his westphalia camper. I'm sure he's never changed a electrical harness due to age in his VW's. :)
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

ainokea
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by ainokea » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:37 pm

This has been blown out of proportion. The cutting of one wire and installing another to correct a wiring resistance problem sounds a bit to complicated for some. The 6 volt system was used as an example that can be applied to most VW systems without going thru each and every type and model. They are all very similar with power from the regulator going to the lite switch then to the fuse panel ending up at terminal 30 on the ignition switch. Yes, sometimes cleaning the connectors and fuse panel contacts does work, but what to do if it doesn't? Maybe a new battery, starter, and generator or alternator has had no effect. What to do next? Hot start relay? what happens if there is an intermittent failure with the relay, nothing constant but intermittently. I have dealt with this problem for a number of years and have found success in all cases. Type 1 and 3 are far easier than type 2's because of the work being done inside the vehicle, type 2's are a beast of another color as you already know. What I'm saying is that this is an option that can be looked at when all else fails, it's not a guaranteed not to fail procedure with porcupined wiring all over the place. If wiring is done that way, the person doing it should not be allowed near a VW.

aerosurfer
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by aerosurfer » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:25 am

I have a Hot start relay on my late bay. I put mine in to take the resistance travel off the wires from going back to front to back. Its mounted in the engine bay high and dry.

That being said, The poster above who mentioned wire ends is spot on. Redoing all my wire ends as I go, from tail light wiring and FI connections with the proper crimpers and making sure the ground locations are polished shiny. I have had no connection gremlins once I got everything sorted.
Like everything else with old mechanics, don't just throw $$ and parts at a problem, trouble shoot, diagnose and treat the other causes and symptoms before you just start reinventing the wheel

Also recently had the motor out and replaced the starter bushing, as well as cleaned and re-greased the solenoid. My bus fires up strong and fast.
77 Westy deluxe

Jivermo
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Re: Hot start relays and another dependable option

Post by Jivermo » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:32 am

Aerosurfer is right on target there. By the way...welcome to this eclectic group. Just as we have Murphy's Law, we also have Colin's Lament, which is "Throwing parts at a perceived problem is not the correct answer".

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