002 3-RIB FAILURE

Moderators: Amskeptic, Sluggo

User avatar
Snap
Getting Hooked!
Location: Newberg, Oregon
Status: Offline

002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:12 am

I was driving home from work a couple weeks ago at about 45 mph on a flat back road in 4th gear just putting along and all of sudden I hear a loud squealing noise come from the back. The noise reminded me of a seized throw-out bearing. I think I remember feeling a bit of resistance just before the noise started. The squealing noise only lasted 15 seconds at most and then I think I heard a thud and the noise stopped. After coming to a complete stop wondering what all that commotion was about, I depressed the clutch and was unable to get it in gear. I turned the engine off and was then able to get into 2nd. I was able to limp it home in 2nd gear. I had no problem getting engaging and disengaging the clutch, When I try to shift on the fly the trans acts as if I am no depressing the clutch. Did I loose a synco or wipe out a bearing on the counter shaft? I have been slowly disassembling the engine bay getting ready to pull the transaxle out and take a look at the nose cone. I would like to replace some seals even if it is a clutch issue. Any help or clues to what I am looking at for repairing this problem would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Snap
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

User avatar
hambone
Post-Industrial Non-Secular Mennonite
Location: Portland, Ore.
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by hambone » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:21 am

I'll bet the throw out bearing shaft gizmo broke, transmissions usually don't fail suddenly. But what do I know?
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:51 pm

I can't see into your bell housing with the current crystal ball, but I foresee hambone being on the right track. That is, of course, because I had a pressure plate collar blow up on me once. Exactly the same description, except for some unknown reason the clutch started working once the whole thing fell apart. For the 10 miles to get home though, it was a nightmare.

So if you have the "early style" release setup without the guide sleeve, then pull the engine only. If you're not sure, pull the engine only.

Image
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Snap
Getting Hooked!
Location: Newberg, Oregon
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:16 pm

I sure hope this is the problem... Hopefully I will be able to get some time this evening to finish dropping the engine and see whats going on in there.

I believe I also have the early style release set up as I have kept everything stock. Is the newer style more reliable? If so can I retro-fit a newer style without changing out the bell housing (install a new release fork to match bearing)? I have never changed out the clutch since I've owned it because the few times I have had the engine out the clutch has shown to have plenty of meat left. Should I use this opportunity to install a new clutch, assuming the release bearing failed?
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:06 pm

Snap wrote: I believe I also have the early style release set up as I have kept everything stock. Is the newer style more reliable? If so can I retro-fit a newer style without changing out the bell housing (install a new release fork to match bearing)? I have never changed out the clutch since I've owned it because the few times I have had the engine out the clutch has shown to have plenty of meat left. Should I use this opportunity to install a new clutch, assuming the release bearing failed?
I do not think you're going to have an issue with the clutch disc, unless it has been soaked in oil. So leave it for now as long as it's over 7mm thick.

The old style uses a throw-out bearing that is clipped into the operating shaft with serious spiral clips. The bearing can dislodge itself if you use the cheap clips that some people receive with their "clutch kits." Cheap ones are shown on top, the good spiral ones are shown on bottom. The old style setup uses a pressure plate with a "centering ring." The centering ring is what broke on my setup. The throwout bearing was fine, and it's still in my bus today.

Image

The new style (1971+) release mechanism uses a guide sleeve for the throwout bearing, and gets rid of the centering ring on the pressure plate. The guide sleeve mounts on three M7 studs that thread into the bell housing, and the throwout bearing itself looks beefier. (All new Sachs pressure plates come with the centering ring. If you have a late setup, you must remove the ring on your new plate. (I use a Dremel with a cutoff wheel, but one slip of the hands and a nick of the springs means trash for the brand new part. Be careful, if anybody out there does this.)

Here's a discussion of the different setups:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=148307

Note they also show diaphragm and spring-type pressure plates. They're interchangeable as long as the centering ring/sleeve/TOB setup is correct.

I attest to the factory engineering that there is nothing superior with either setup. They are simply different. I have used both spring and diaphragm pressure plates, and I have put both throwout setups in VWs I care for. I make sure, regardless of setup, that all moving parts are properly lubricated, and the clips really hold the throwout bearing in place.

Let us know what you find after the engine removal. This will dictate what your next step will be.
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Snap
Getting Hooked!
Location: Newberg, Oregon
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:56 pm

Pulled the engine and throw-out bearing looks to be OK. BTW, I do have the heavy duty spring clips on the early release bearing set up.
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:05 pm

Picutres? Of the TOB, the pressure plate, the release fork, and springs?
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Snap
Getting Hooked!
Location: Newberg, Oregon
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:57 am

asiab3 wrote:Picutres? Of the TOB, the pressure plate, the release fork, and springs?
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:53 pm

Try using TheSamba, Photobucket, or Imgr for photo hosting. Google sharing doesn't work well with forum websites like this.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Snap
Getting Hooked!
Location: Newberg, Oregon
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:00 pm

Thanks, I have had some difficulties hosting Drive stored photos. I thought I found a work around to my problem. Dropbox has also given me issues as well. I'll try using my Samba account.
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

User avatar
Snap
Getting Hooked!
Location: Newberg, Oregon
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:51 pm

Since I have posted the photos showing the throw-out bearing and clutch look ok from a visual standpoint, I have not had any more suggestions of where to go from here. I have decided to proceed forward with pulling the transaxle since I am this far already. I am going to use this time to clean up the engine bay where the transaxle has flung a bunch of oil in the bay, replace the transaxle output shaft seals, clean & repack the CV's, flip drive shafts to the opposite sides, replace the rear shift bushing, replace the nose cone bushing & seal, and replace the entire clutch assembly.

Image
Empty Engine Bay

I believe the problem I am having is not a transaxle issue at all. Here are the reasons why I do not think it is the transaxle.

- No glitter of chunks in gear oil
- No clunks or issues when spinning trans input shaft
- No excess lash in ring and pinion
- All gears seem to work

Image
Bolted Trans to make shift cradle I made originally for pulling the engine. Oil leaking from shaft seals for quite some time


I have pulled the clutch from the flywheel and everything looks ok. However, I think the clutch is the issue. The fact that the clutch feels like it is not releasing all the way so I cannot find any gears with engine running, but I can find all the gears with the engine off its as if the clutch is not releasing all the way. For this reason I am not going to have the transaxle rebuilt.

Image

Image

Image

The CV Boots are original and look to be in good condition. I was told that if they Originals look good, keep using them. When I clean the CV's and do the inspection I will make sure the boots never get touched with solvent. The CV boots did not have much grease in them. Hopefully they are not damaged and I can clean and repack them for many more miles.

Image
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:33 pm

Hi again! I'm sorry I missed the re-upload of the photos; I view this site by clicking "show new posts" on the top, and since you edited the post without making a new post, I didn't see the update. I think you are on the right track.

Now, I'd like to see some pictures of the input shaft of the transmission. Get close and CLEAR photos. Marco mode on your camera is best, but a smartphone camera does OK if you touch the spot on the screen where you want it to focus.

Focus your sleuthing on the input shaft, the pilot bearing, (inside the gland nut,) and the odd wear on the center of the clutch disc. (Second and third photo.) See if you have a small enough pinky to feel the pilot bearing for smooth rotation. A frozen PB could gall the input shaft and it will definitely prevent shifting. It might squeal on its way out.

So you apparently have the late-style throwout bearing setup, which is good. And I don't see any metal shards that are typical of a TOB issue. How does the TOB feel when you spin it by hand. Sounds?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Snap
Getting Hooked!
Location: Newberg, Oregon
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Snap » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:07 pm

asiab3 wrote:..
Now, I'd like to see some pictures of the input shaft of the transmission. Get close and CLEAR photos. Marco mode on your camera is best, but a smartphone camera does OK if you touch the spot on the screen where you want it to focus.

Focus your sleuthing on the input shaft, the pilot bearing, (inside the gland nut,) and the odd wear on the center of the clutch disc. (Second and third photo.) See if you have a small enough pinky to feel the pilot bearing for smooth rotation. A frozen PB could gall the input shaft and it will definitely prevent shifting. It might squeal on its way out.
Image
The pilot bearing seems to spin just fine inside the glad nut

Image
I believe the dark ring is from the pilot bearing. There is not any grease left inside cavity. It definitely needs to be greased

Image
The TOB spins freely. I have encountered bearings that will seize under pressure but spin freely unloaded

Image
The strange wear that you see on the clutch plate is from the casting process. The lower part has been machined.
asiab3 wrote: So you apparently have the late-style throwout bearing setup, which is good. And I don't see any metal shards that are typical of a TOB issue. How does the TOB feel when you spin it by hand. Sounds?

Robbie
The throw-out bearing spins freely, but I have my doubts.
-Snap

'70 Type II
9 Passenger
1641 DP
Solex- 34 PICT 3

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by asiab3 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:38 pm

Achtung, photo number one!! What on Nordhoff's earth is going on there? Is the pilot bearing sliding in and out?

Study this here "anatomy of a gland nut" chart and see if you share my concerns. Remember, the gland nut MUST allow the input shaft to spin 100% free of the engine rotation. That means a potential difference of three thousand RPMs! And it can't do that if it's bashed up against the input shaft splines.

Image

So you're entirely missing your felt "dust collecting" ring, (which keeps clutch particles out of the bearing) and the bearing itself is far too forward (front is front) in the nut. What on earth is going on here? Did you install the gland nut like that, or did this happen while driving? It very well could be an issue with the outer cage of the bearing. Can you pull the bearing out? A new gland nut is $9, and well worth saving yourself the hassle of pulling the $5 bearing out and guessing if it's good. You already know yours might have been run dry… Does your PB easily press back into the gland nut where it belongs? The galling on the input shaft next to the splines scares me. But then again, so does the gnarled clutch spline outer rim.

Before reassembling regardless of what you do this instant, CLEAN the splines in the clutch disc AND on the input shaft, slide the clutch disc on the shaft in many different spline orientations feeling for smoothness, then grease the splines lightly before reassembly. A toothpick makes a nice grease applicator to your new gland nut too…

Your input shaft appears to have two cross-hatch sanding stripes on it already. It might be interesting to see what's under the brown spot if you continue the cross hatch form the tip to the base of the splines. Something like 100 grit followed by 320? Maybe 600 to polish it off? No sanding shrapnel allowed into the pilot or throwout bearings, ever!

Clear as mud?
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: 002 3-RIB FAILURE

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:32 pm

asiab3 wrote:Achtung,Is the pilot bearing sliding in and out?
Robbie
That appears to be a normal picture as far as location and width of the needle tracks on the input shaft. I only noted that there appears to be a lot of rust discoloration.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 98,380 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

Post Reply