engine teardown pics after 20k miles

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airkooledchris
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engine teardown pics after 20k miles

Post by airkooledchris » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:04 pm

A short history before the pics:

AVP rebuild installed 7/5/2006 by a local shop.

19,949 miles to be exact

before the motor was installed, we noticed this on the #3 side of the head:
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9/14/2006 valve spring broken on #3 intake
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the motor has always felt like it was lacking any power. much worse than the old one I had to replace (cracked oil pickup tube) with 150k on it.

MPG numbers: 2006:
13 /11.2 /13.5 /15.4 /15.1 /15 /12.34 /12.62 /13 /14.8 /15.2 /14.24

it always had an unusual noise coming from within.
early on Jake R mentioned that it sounded like a loose main bearing, and the sound confuddled Colin as well when he had a chance to hear it.
later we identified some of those odd noises as coming from the alternator, but never did nail down what the F it was.

-------------------------------------

so the motor is out of the van now. this is from my 81 Westfalia.
the motor was still running when I pulled it. I was getting between 9-10 MPG over the past few months.

anywho, here's the pics of what I have taken apart thus far:

heads:


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lifters:
#3
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#3 and #4

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#2
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#1
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remember that #3 valve shown at the top of the page with the shoddy work?
this is what it looks like now:
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oddly enough the only cylinder that wasn't super low on compression, #4, appears to have had blow by:
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what does it all mean? I don't know, but from what ive been able to look into so far - I think the lifter wear means they weren't able to turn inside their bore.
not sure why or if that means anything other than they wouldn't have worn well over time - if the motor was worth running past 20k miles....
1979 California Transporter

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RSorak 71Westy
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Post by RSorak 71Westy » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:29 pm

number 4 looks like it had poor oil control and was burning oil. This oil probably also helped the ring seal during the compression test, giving a falsely high reading.
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Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.

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satchmo
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Post by satchmo » Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:34 pm

It may be too late, but it would be interesting to know what the deck height was and to actually measure the compression ratio in each cylinder. One engine I took apart, that had originally been built by GEX, then the heads replaced by the local service shop, had a compression ratio of only 6.3:1. No wonder it was gutless.

Tim
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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:02 pm

Those lifters look very similar to the ones that came out of my GEX engine after 28000 miles. Replacing the camshaft fixed that issue.
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Were there sealing rings used between the heads and cylinders? The heads and cylinders were apparently not well mated to each other!

Based on what you're seeing, I'd now put GEX and AVP at about the same quality level.... It's a damn shame.

We need someone to take up where Boston Bob left off - high quality stock rebuilds at a reasonable price.

Speaking of high deck height / low compression, check out the numbers written on my heads when I pulled the engine apart. I'm pretty sure they indicate the compression ratio! Combine that CR with a "torque special" CB Performance cam with high overlap, and it was no wonder it had no low end and got 13mpg!

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Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
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tristessa
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Post by tristessa » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:43 pm

Lifters from an AVP engine with 40,000 miles, installed 3/2004:

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.. no wonder the lifter wouldn't pull out through the pushrod tube hole. :pukeleft:
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Re: engine teardown pics after 20k miles

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:26 pm

airkooledchris wrote: what does it all mean?
....
I remember our 40-60 time trial, we ran out of road. Your engine looks like it had a number of simultaneous issues. As far as power, yes the lifters look like they could have contributed to preventing the engine from breathing. Also, satchmo brings up a good point regarding the forensics of checking deck height during teardown.

Those lifters look horrendous for 20,000 miles.

The oil leaking from the cylinder barrels onto the heads is not all that unusual, and does not necessarily suggest that the sealing rings were blown. These engines can "unclamp" when cold and oil in the barrel from old or poorly prepared rings (at 20,000 miles, hello) will seep overnight. Then, after only a minute of running the next day, the cylinder and head reseal. You can tell if you have a running leak by powdery carbon and sometimes blasted bisected sealing rings. Wet oil that has caramelized on the hot head surface is more typical of a cold weep caused by low head nut torques.

I think you can do a far better rebuild yourself.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Ritter
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Post by Ritter » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:37 pm

Holly crap, Hal! I bet that lifter bled down every time!
1978 Westfalia 2.0 FI

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Re: engine teardown pics after 20k miles

Post by germansupplyscott » Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:15 am

airkooledchris wrote:what does it all mean? I don't know, but from what ive been able to look into so far - I think the lifter wear means they weren't able to turn inside their bore
cylinder to head seal almost non-existent, something done wrong there with the preparation and/or assembly. lifters look reground and probably have incorrect radius which made them fail to rotate. lifter bores may be bad, cam profile may be wrong, these will prevent the lifters from rotating also.
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tristessa
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Post by tristessa » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:46 am

Ritter wrote:Holly crap, Hal! I bet that lifter bled down every time!
Those were "solid" lifters. I use quotation marks because of the hollow area inside the thing.
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airkooledchris
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Post by airkooledchris » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:38 pm

and *i think* these are the last of the pics of the teardown:

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odd color to the cam bearing on the right in this pic?
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1979 California Transporter

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vwlover77
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Post by vwlover77 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:12 pm

What is up with the surface finish on the cam lobes? Looks like they have not been broken in properly, and/or are extremely rough???
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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satchmo
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Post by satchmo » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:20 pm

vwlover77 wrote:What is up with the surface finish on the cam lobes? Looks like they have not been broken in properly, and/or are extremely rough???
I agree. I wonder if they just reground the cam and lifters without doing any hardening or polishing. Piss poor work on AVP's part. Run away from these budget 'black box' engine rebuilders. Do the rebuild yourself. Then you know what's inside.

Tim
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First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

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Post by Amskeptic » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:24 pm

vwlover77 wrote:What is up with the surface finish on the cam lobes? Looks like they have not been broken in properly, and/or are extremely rough???
Might be a good intense phosphate treatment, cam does not look that bad.
I'd like to see a clearer picture of the center main bearing shells. Crank looks a bit nasty at that journal, and case looks like it might have been fretted at #2 saddle as well. Cam has oem riveted gear? What is the number stamped on the inside edge of the gear?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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airkooledchris
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Post by airkooledchris » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:02 pm

Image

ImageImage

ImageImage
1979 California Transporter

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airkooledchris
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Post by airkooledchris » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:09 pm

regarding the cam and how it looks, I had posted this over at Jake's forum as well and he came back to say
Actually that cam was ground on a wheel that had just been dressed.. We see that frequently and believe it or not its a good thing for work hardening.

just my luck. the one part i wouldn't have re-used anyway (with the better choices of grind out there) is the one that's still good. ;p


in the end I thought there was going to be one big glaring issue once it was torn apart, as to why it was such a stinker of an engine, but it seems like it was nearly everything failing in one way or another.

im sure I also overheated it along the way. I was trying to push it as hard as the last one was able to go and this wasn't up for it....
1979 California Transporter

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