Noisy Lifter

dtrumbo · Post by **dtrumbo** » Wed May 06, 2009 1:45 pm

Howdy do,

On my '78 Riviera, with hydraulic lifters, occasionally I'll get one that doesn't pump up. It's clacky as hell right at start up and lasts for anywhere between five and fifteen minutes and then quiets down. Well yesterday, the bus sounded fine on start up, but when I got to work after about a forty-minute highway run, it was noisy. I shut it off, went in to work and on the way home it was still noisy. When I got home I listened and determined it's on the 1/2 (right) side although I have no way to know which of the four it is.

My question. Is this a big deal? Will the noisy lifter damage anything if I continue to drive it this way? Even if not, how hard is it to remove and repair/replace the lifters? It seems I've read where you simply (ha, ha) remove the valve cover, the rocker arm assembly, the push rod and then suck the lifter out with a magnet stick. I'm sure it's just that easy, everything is. Of course you would do one at a time so you don't get anything mixed up.

The noise drives me crazy because it shouldn't make the noise and I'm weird that way. Ask Colin. When he drove my bus and told me to listen to the wheel bearing crying out for relief, I couldn't hear it because I was obsessing about the noisy lifter. I may need therapy.

Thanks for any help anyone cares to pass along.

spiffy · Post by **spiffy** » Wed May 06, 2009 2:16 pm

sounds like lifter bench bleeding time.

dtrumbo · Post by **dtrumbo** » Wed May 06, 2009 2:28 pm

spiffy wrote:sounds like lifter bench bleeding time.

Quite possibly. I glanced at Don's write-up, viewtopic.php?t=1790 and it seems straight-forward, I'm just not sure of the procedure to get the little buggers out of the engine.

Ritter · Post by **Ritter** » Wed May 06, 2009 2:43 pm

dtrumbo wrote:I'm just not sure of the procedure to get the little buggers out of the engine.

You got it:

dtrumbo wrote:It seems I've read where you simply (ha, ha) remove the valve cover, the rocker arm assembly, the push rod and then suck the lifter out with a magnet stick.

Keep the orientation of the push rods (and all else) correct. Have plenty of paper towels to catch oil dribbles as the push rods will be full. Bench bleeding is not that difficult. (I've done this for exactly one lifter under Colin's watchful eye) Adjust valves when done.

edited to fix mangled formatting....

chitwnvw · Post by **chitwnvw** » Wed May 06, 2009 2:46 pm

Dick, it's as you described.

Remove the push rod wire thing, unbolt the rocker arms, extract, you might have shims, so note their locations, extract push rods and then pull the out the lifters. I'm guessing you'd want to keep them matched to their lifter, so note that also. Not sure how much metal is in the hydraulic lifters, but a magnet sounds like a good idea to me.

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:27 pm

I use a thin piece of solid picture hanger wire to retrieve the lifters from the engine. Put a very short 90 degree bend in the end of the wire and fish it in. I try to get the little 90 degree "hook" into the center hole, or in the slot around the inside circumference and s-l-o-w-l-y pull the lifter out.

My guess is that your lifter may have a broken internal spring. They will not pump up if that's the case. You can put in a new lifter with no problem. Bench bleed the new one first.

You may be able to figure out which one is the problem by setting each cylinder to TDC with both valves closed and pressing the pushrod end of the rocker arm firmly in toward the engine. If one of them allows movement, that's the one. (Do this after running the engine long enough for all the good lifters to pump up.)

dtrumbo · Post by **dtrumbo** » Thu May 07, 2009 5:17 am

All good advice. For project-timing purposes, how urgent is the project? The reason I ask is I have a 300-mile round trip event planned for this bus a week from Saturday. I know what you're thinking. "No problem. This is a two-hour job at the most". I've learned the painful lesson that two-hour projects end up taking me two weeks to accomplish. Ideally, I would get this taken care of prior to the trip, but would it be o.k. to put it off until afterward? What potential damage to the engine might be caused by putting it off? Of course, I would tell the bus my intentions and he knows I love him (I just buffed out his 31-year-old original Neptune Blue paint and it's GORGEOUS!). Is it o.k. to put it off or will something bad happen to the engine if I do so?

Westy78 · Post by **Westy78** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:16 am

When was the last oil change? Hydros enjoy nice clean oil.

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:42 am

I would not make that long a trip with a collapsed lifter. The noise is the from the collision of parts. Eventually, something is going to give.

If you can pinpoint the problem lifter, it really is a quick and easy job, especially if you decide to install a new lifter. (Although depending on the design of the new lifter you get, bench bleeding it can be a pain. Some of the designs out there do not allow you to hold down the internal piston with a tool through the oil hole. Post or PM when you get to that step if it turns out to be the case.)

dtrumbo · Post by **dtrumbo** » Thu May 07, 2009 9:27 am

Westy78 wrote:When was the last oil change? Hydros enjoy nice clean oil.

400 miles ago. Nice clean Castrol 20W50 with a brand new Mann filter.

Westy78 wrote:I would not make that long a trip with a collapsed lifter. The noise is the from the collision of parts. Eventually, something is going to give.

In the back of my mind I already knew this. I do have to drive it to work tomorrow. If it doesn't pump up on it's own in the 40-mile round trip to work and back, I'll do your trick of pressing on the rockers to find the culprit. I'll do that one for sure and hope I can get it all back together by a week from Saturday.

Thanks for the common-sense slap.

dtrumbo · Post by **dtrumbo** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:42 am

Uh, one more dumb question before I dive into this. Bentley sez in order to remove the lifter, you are to remove not only the push rod (obviously), but also the push-rod tube. Is this required? I thought (ha! ha!) that you could use your magnet/picture hanger wire fishing tool by inserting it down the push-rod tube, hooking the lifter and carefully pulling it out. Am I insane for thinking this? I don't have a real aversion to removing the tube, but I don't have new seals handy and with my luck, I'd ruin one of them.

What's the consensus from those who've traveled this road? Push-rod tube stays in or has to come out?

Thanks!

Westy78 · Post by **Westy78** » Fri May 08, 2009 9:37 am

If I'm remembering correctly I think you do have to remove the tube. The seal blocks part of the opening in the bore and will keep the lifter from pulling out. I'm not at all positive on that though.

dtrumbo · Post by **dtrumbo** » Fri May 08, 2009 5:52 pm

O.k. so using Don's technique, I put #1 at TDC. Both rockers were unable to be pushed. I then put #2 at top and the exhaust valve rocker clicks quite easily. Aha! The culprit! I took the rocker off for the #2 valves and attempted to remove the lifter without removing the tube.

Westy78 wrote:If I'm remembering correctly I think you do have to remove the tube. The seal blocks part of the opening in the bore and will keep the lifter from pulling out. I'm not at all positive on that though.

As Colin would say, Ayep! I took the tube out and only scratched it a little with my vice grips. Even with the tube out, I still had a bugger of a time getting the lifter out, but finally prevailed. They sure are a lot bigger than I had them envisioned in my mind's eye. One side of the lock ring was bent up and out of the lifter like so.

I finished removing the ring and removed the socket.

I tried to get the plunger out with no success. I've tapped the lifter on the bench upside down trying to get it out, but no dice. I think this fact might prove Don's theory of a broken plunger spring. All the gunk in there might explain why they sometimes don't like to pump up! I'll try to work on it again in the morning, but I'll be ordering a new Febi lifter from Autohaus AZ on Monday. I'll probably pay as much for time-machine-like shipping than I will for the part, but I think I can get this fixed by next weekend!

So my next question. What all is involved in putting in the new lifter? I know I need to bench bleed it, but then do I just poke it back in the hole and put everything else back together? I suppose an adjustment for the two #2 valves is a good idea since I have the rockers for those off. Let me know if there's more to it. Thanks everyone!

Westy78 · Post by **Westy78** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:34 pm

dtrumbo wrote:
So my next question. What all is involved in putting in the new lifter? I know I need to bench bleed it, but then do I just poke it back in the hole and put everything else back together? I suppose an adjustment for the two #2 valves is a good idea since I have the rockers for those off. Let me know if there's more to it. Thanks everyone!

That's about it. That and hope that the new lifter doesn't eat the old lobe.

Now that I think about it you may want to do some kind of lifter break in maybe. Don't know if that's necessary with a used cam though.

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:52 pm

Yep, that's it. Bench bleed it, pop it back in and adjust it.

That lifter is definitely nasty looking inside. Have you tried depressing the check ball with a punch? That may release the suction to allow you to get the plunger out. Something to do if you're bored while waiting for the new lifter....

You may want to do the break in procedure with the new lifter - run the engine at 2000-2500 rpm for 15 minutes at the first start.

Itinerant Air-Cooled

Itinerant Air-Cooled

Noisy Lifter

Noisy Lifter