Another newbie rebuild

Moderators: Amskeptic, Sluggo

82bessieblue
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Another newbie rebuild

Post by 82bessieblue » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:51 am

Hi all!

Long time reader, first time poster. So our '82 Vanagon 2.0L is giving up the ghost and is ready for a fresh start. I've been researching the Bentley, Samba, here, John Muir's and Tom Wilson's book and am taking the advice of others to dive into this winter project of rebuilding the engine. I have some mechanical skills but the aircooled engines are fairly new to me. Luckily she's not a daily driver so I have plenty of time to work on this. I've also looked at other rebuild projects and have come up with a list of parts that I would at least like someone to take a look at and provide comments/suggestions on if this set up will work or if I'm gonna blow myself up lol. My overall goal is more on reliability and less on high performance modifications. I've already removed the engine and am in the process of tearing the engine down / cleaning and cataloging parts, so this list may change given the conditions of certain items.

Should also mention this engine is actually a late 70's model with the "GD" case code, and has dual Solex/Brosol carbs (they are pretty simple/easy to deal with!), and solid lifters.

New Piston/Cylinder set - Mahle, stock 94mm
New heads - AMC - modified by HAM (or purchased directly from Type4Store? Is there a difference?)
Add CHT/Oil pressure gauges
New clutch (recommended in Muir's book)
New rear/front seals (front is leaking bad so might as well replace both)
Victor Reinz engine gasket kit

Valvetrain (I'm fairly clueless here, and I know its essential the geometry is right)
New camshaft, gear, & bearings (Raby or Web?) Size?
Pushrods - Aircooled.net HD aluminum or chromoly or adjustable?
Pushrod tubes - Dansk
Rocker-arm set - CB Performance (1.7:1)
Porsche swivel valve adjusters (I read somewhere you have to have 1.7:1 Rockers for these swivels to work?)

Thermostat kit with flaps/pulley/cable (because the PO removed)

New exhaust (I prefer stock muffler that bolts directly to the heat boxes)
New heatboxes


Thoughts/suggestions? anything else?

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:46 am

82bessieblue wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:51 am

New camshaft, gear, & bearings (Raby or Web?) Size?
Pushrods - Aircooled.net HD aluminum or chromoly or adjustable?
Pushrod tubes - Dansk
Rocker-arm set - CB Performance (1.7:1)
Porsche swivel valve adjusters (I read somewhere you have to have 1.7:1 Rockers for these swivels to work?)

Thoughts/suggestions? anything else?

Press for stock camshaft profile, especially if you decide to install factory fuel injection.
I prefer aluminum pushrods for solid lifters.
Anything with the name "Dansk" needs to be looked at very carefully. No dents allowed anywhere.
You best not mean what you wrote ... "(1.7:1)".
There are "1700" (8mm) rocker arms, and there are 1800/2000 (10mm) rocker arms, but you do not want a ratio rocker arm of 1.7:1. No.

You CAN use later rocker arms and get 10mm swivelfoot adjusters for them.
http://www.tp-technologie.de/produkte%2 ... h%20en.htm

People may push you for performance "upgrades" but you tell them that you want low-down torque. That is what gives an engine the power to launch you from stoplights. That is what VW was trying to offer all along, low-down torque at the expense of power further up past 5,000 rpm. Who goes there?
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

82bessieblue
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by 82bessieblue » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:08 pm

Thanks for the input! So what is the stock camshaft profile that I need to keep?

What is the best rocker arm ratio for low-end torque? 1.4:1? Do I need adjustable pushrods so that my valvetrain geometry stays in sync (looking at positioning of the rocker arm to valve tip, or do swivel adjusters compensate for that well enough?)

Thanks for the link! also any recommendations on type/brand of rocker arms that are reliable? Again, not concerned with how fast the van will go, but how it will push me up hills for many miles!

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:39 pm

82bessieblue wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:08 pm
Thanks for the input! So what is the stock camshaft profile that I need to keep?

What is the best rocker arm ratio for low-end torque? 1.4:1? Do I need adjustable pushrods so that my valvetrain geometry stays in sync (looking at positioning of the rocker arm to valve tip, or do swivel adjusters compensate for that well enough?)

Thanks for the link! also any recommendations on type/brand of rocker arms that are reliable? Again, not concerned with how fast the van will go, but how it will push me up hills for many miles!
Did someone tell you that you need rocker arms? Most of the time, our rocker arms are good for the life of the car (mine had 588,238 miles and they were FINE). You seriously seriously do not want any friggen ratio rocker arms unless you are on a drag strip.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

82bessieblue
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by 82bessieblue » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:14 am

No not yet anyways. If the stock arms are in good condition (which they seem to be) then I will just keep them and get the 10mm swivel adjusters and call it good. As far as cams I'll talk to web or scat about getting something close to stock grinds and gearing and lifters.

Any other wear items (aside from bearings/seals) that need to be looked at closer or are known to fail on these engines or are worthwhile upgrades while the engine is out?

User avatar
satchmo
Old School!
Location: Claremont, CA
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by satchmo » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:18 pm

When I built my 2.0l I think everything was stock except for the swivel foot adjusters. I might have had larger valves, but I don't recall for sure. If you vary much from stock then you will have your hands full with a cascade unintended consequences. Best to stay to with original spec when doing your first build.

There are a couple VW technical service bulletin items for the 2.0 air cooled engine that you should do. One is a groove in the connecting rod to spray a little more oil up toward the piston and the other is to eliminate the metal sealing gasket at the top of the cylinder. The TSB describing this stuff is posted on line. If you can't find it let me know. I think I have a copy of it here somewhere....

A very worthwhile expense is to have the complete rotating mass dynamically balanced. This includes the pistons, conrods, crankshaft, flywheel and clutch if you can. Balanced engines run smoother and last longer. This is in addition to having your rods balanced end to end and pistons matched in weight (close anyway). Don't forget to measure and balance the combustion chambers in the heads. Oh, and set your deck height ,and get your valve geometry right, and etc, etc. There is a lot involved.

I think your 82 van was originally set up with fuel injection and I would recommend you keep it rather than going with dual carbs. On the dual carbs you will probably spend a lot of time trying to get a good balance of idle, off throttle response and wide open running. The fuel injection your van came with is much better in this regard, plus your van is already set up for it.

Satchmo
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by asiab3 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:17 am

82bessieblue wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:14 am
No not yet anyways. If the stock arms are in good condition (which they seem to be) then I will just keep them and get the 10mm swivel adjusters and call it good.
Keep the old rocker arm shafts, and (for new heads) install the shafts with the chamfer inwards if the holes have them. If the holes have none or two identical chamfers, instal them oiled with the less-worn sides inward. (Think about how the valve springs/camshaft keeps tension on the rocker shafts!)

As far as cams I'll talk to web or scat about getting something close to stock grinds and gearing and lifters.
Gearing is non-negotiable. 1:2 crank to cam. But gear backlash is set during the engine build, and you want to stay on the smaller side of spec for long and quiet life. Ask if you have questions, but the Tom Wilson book describes it excellently.

A stock grind is available new and reground from Web and Engle, there is no reason to ask them for opinions unless you want to be sold something different and less-torquey. I don't mean this with disrespect to any companies, but I called several cam manufacturers earlier this year and they ALL tried to "up-sell" me on cams with more lift (worse for wear) or more duration (worse for FI compatibility.)
Any other wear items (aside from bearings/seals) that need to be looked at closer or are known to fail on these engines or are worthwhile upgrades while the engine is out?
If you're going to split the case, bearing clearances will ALL be considered, yes? Bentley has the dry numbers you need, but Wilson does a better job of explaining what they mean. Colin explains WHY they're important here:

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/vie ... hp?t=12422

I'm sure there are tons of things I'm missing, but on a Type 4 rebuild, you'll also want new bearing dowel pins that fit SNUG in the case, and new plastic shuffle bushings on the main bearing bolts. (Gasket sets still come with these, right?)

Balance is, in my opinion, extremely important as satchmo says. Smoothness, quietness, power, and efficiency are fun when they all contribute for a better running engine.

Good luck, and ask questions because the folks here know their stuff!
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

82bessieblue
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by 82bessieblue » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:37 am

Thank you for the input! Actually the PO removed the fuel injection system, so I'm left with the dual solex carb setup for now. I may change that back over to FI in the future, but for now I'll keep the carbs.

Definitely will push suppliers to keep things as close to stock as possible. I bought a deck height / cc head measuring kits from jbugs earlier this week so I'll be putting them to good use. Ordering a set of the 10mm swivel adjusters from Stateline today (I checked with Heiko at Samba and he no longer sells them).

I was aware of the TSB for not using gaskets between the jugs and heads, but wasn't aware of the bearings so I will read up on that. My hope is I won't have to touch the crankshaft/connecting rods, but I will check the tolerances to confirm once I split the case. Funny you mention camshaft backlash, I was just reading about that last night in Wilson's book (great resource!).

Gonna try and get it on the stand this weekend and crack open the heads to see what it looks like, I'm sure I'll have questions then! Glad you all are available to help out us newbies!

DirtT
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by DirtT » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:00 pm

I’d take a good look at the oil pump too. Wilson has a good write up on it. One thing Wilson didn’t mention is oil pump drive tang depth. Just make sure the tang extends adequately into the slot of the new cam gear once you get things set up in the case half. Set the pump in the half, try to account for gasket thickness, and rotate the cam/crank assembly. This will also let you look at potential interference between the face of the cam gear (bolts) and the pump.

82bessieblue
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by 82bessieblue » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:49 pm

Got the heads and pistons/cylinders off this weekend. Cylinder pic is of #1 and #2, then pic of both heads. The pic with the head and the jug is from cylinders 3 and 4. Sorry forgot to take pics of pistons #3 and #4. Will grab those tonight. There was significant scoring on the top/bottom of piston 3, and with all the carbon buildup I'm guessing oil has been passing the rings for awhile? Do you guys see any other issues I'm missing? Valves didn't look all that bad, just alot of carbon buildup, also carbon gunk/buildup behind both exhaust/intake valves. I'm going to measure the rings/cylinders just for my own curiosity, will still be replacing all. Also will check sideway spacing of connecting rods on crankshaft...
Attachments
003.jpg
002.jpg
001.jpg

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:12 pm

82bessieblue wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:49 pm
Do you guys see any other issues I'm missing? a lot of carbon buildup, also carbon gunk/buildup behind both exhaust/intake valves. I'm going to measure the rings/cylinders just for my own curiosity, will still be replacing all. Also will check sideway spacing of connecting rods on crankshaft...

Carbon/oil crusty build-up at the valves suggests worn valve guides. Your heads were leaking. Running without thermostat can exacerbate this, as can inadequate torque and re-torques during engine build, as can an overheat event.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

82bessieblue
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by 82bessieblue » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:13 am

Thermostat kit and cooling flaps are definitely on my list. I checked the connecting rod tolerances last night, they all seem to be within wear limits, so I'm debating whether or not to even crack open the case. I'll check the oil pump gears and the camshaft lobes/solid lifters and go from there. From the pics the odd thing is the cylinder/piston with the most/highest amount of scoring/seize marks was #3. Which oddly compression wasn't that bad on that cylinder (105). Cylinder #4 had the worst compression at 35, though there was still some scoring on that cylinder/piston. Ring gaps were all outside wear limits on all pistons except #1. Will also check/clean oil pressure/control valves. Process continues!
Attachments
piston4.jpg
piston #4
piston3.jpg
piston #3
cyl 3.jpg
Cylinder #3

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:14 am

82bessieblue wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:13 am
a) I checked the connecting rod tolerances last night, they all seem to be within wear limits, so I'm debating whether or not to even crack open the case.

I'll check the oil pump gears and the camshaft lobes/solid lifters and go from there. cylinder/piston with the most/highest amount of scoring/seize marks was #3. Which oddly compression wasn't that bad on that cylinder (105).

Cylinder #4 had the worst compression at 35, though there was still some scoring on that cylinder/piston.

Ring gaps were all outside wear limits on all pistons except #1.
The above is a bit imprecise. Please answer the following questions:

1. Connecting rod CLEARANCES in inches please ( so, what is the wear limit?)
#1
#2
#3
#4

2. #3 shows clear evidence of overheating. See my prior post and write in your response to this post here what was it that I noted. Now you have to put together the story of how the engine got here, and you need to make sure that you write a different story on the way out from here.

3. "Cylinder #4 had the worst compression at 35, though there was still some scoring on that cylinder/piston."

This is a magnificently mangled sentence.
Please delete the word "though", insert the word AND, and delete the word "still".
It almost reads that evidence of scoring should guard against compression loss!
Yes, #4 had the worst compression (likely valves, yes?) and it had only modest scoring, but it is still significant in the realm of oil consumption as seen in your photographs)


4. Try to rotate the crankshaft back and forth maybe a half inch in each direction as you push/pull the camshaft longitudinally. If you get anything greater than an almost imperceptible click, check the camshaft end play with a dial indicator. .006" is the wear limit.

5. Now do the same push/pull with the crankshaft/flywheel. .006" is the wear limit.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

82bessieblue
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by 82bessieblue » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:16 pm

1. Connecting rod CLEARANCES in inches please ( so, what is the wear limit?)
Per Muir, any spacing greater than 0.016" between the connecting rod landing and edge of crankshaft should be replaced. I used the 0.016" feeler gauge on all four connecting rods and it would not fit.
2. #3 shows clear evidence of overheating. See my prior post and write in your response to this post here what was it that I noted. Now you have to put together the story of how the engine got here, and you need to make sure that you write a different story on the way out from here.
This??
Carbon/oil crusty build-up at the valves suggests worn valve guides. Your heads were leaking. Running without thermostat can exacerbate this, as can inadequate torque and re-torques during engine build, as can an overheat event.
Yes, as I mentioned in my previous post, I definitely intend to install/replace the thermostat/cooling flap system. They were removed by the PO.
This is a magnificently mangled sentence.
Please delete the word "though", insert the word AND, and delete the word "still".
It almost reads that evidence of scoring should guard against compression loss!
Yes, #4 had the worst compression (likely valves, yes?) and it had only modest scoring, but it is still significant in the realm of oil consumption as seen in your photographs)
This is classic. I was going to write up a long response to this, but I will choose to take the high road and ignore it.

But I will not be denigrated. I'll find another source of info, thanks.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Another newbie rebuild

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:17 pm

82bessieblue wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:16 pm
Per Muir, any spacing greater than 0.016" between the connecting rod landing and edge of crankshaft should be replaced. I used the 0.016" feeler gauge on all four connecting rods and it would not fit.
That is but one of three specifications. The side-to-side clearance you mention above allows the crankshaft to both move in the bearings (end play) and expand along its length. The critical specification is the bearing clearance between the crankshaft and the connecting rod. It should range between .001" and .004" with a wear limit of .006" (this would be in the push/pull direction).
82bessieblue wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:16 pm
As I mentioned in my previous post, I definitely intend to install/replace the thermostat/cooling flap system. They were removed by the PO.
Good. And necessary.
But the #3 piston/cylinder clearly show trauma. The engine had an overheat event. Do you have any recall of an overheat/hot day's journey on the interstate/ poor running at speed?

82bessieblue wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:16 pm
This is a magnificently mangled sentence.
I was going to write up a long response to this, but I will choose to take the high road and ignore it.
But I will not be denigrated. I'll find another source of info, thanks.
You most certainly were not denigrated. You were respected as an adult who may want to improve and learn. You can see it in the investment of time that I have devoted to answering your questions. In order for us to communicate, we really need to be precise. There are many many sites on the internet where people are led astray because communication was sloppy. So many times, right and left, front and rear, and creative-but-incorrect terminology sends the poor neophyte down the rabbit hole. I am a master of mangled sentences and tortured syntax, many members here can't spell their way out a paper bag, I will correct "breaks" vs brakes, and we all just continue on in the name of excellence and precision.

You wrote up in the initial post,
Long time reader, first time poster. So our '82 Vanagon 2.0L is giving up the ghost

As mentioned in the Mission Statement, we are adults here and expect that grown-ups can handle a little teasing in the name of learning! in the name of making your car last! in the name of the humor that has pervaded this place since 2006! Seriously!
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

Post Reply