Rebuild or swap?!

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Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:29 pm

Just wondering if someone could give me a tough estimate of how long it takes to do the top half rebuild? I have close to no experience with any of this, id use the books you guys recommended, and the engine is already out of the van...

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asiab3
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by asiab3 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:47 pm

It's hard to say. If you were working at the Volkswagen factory with all known good new parts around you, an experienced hand could clock it around eleven minutes. It took me three months from placing the crankcase on my desk to turning the key. Split the difference?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:54 pm

Dave91 wrote:Just wondering if someone could give me a tough estimate of how long it takes to do the top half rebuild?

Ya want a tough estimate? I'll give ya a tough estimate,

GET OUT THERE AND GET TO WORK, YER WASTING TIME. I WANT IT WRAPPED UP BY SATURDAY MORNING.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

cegammel
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by cegammel » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:06 pm

Parts acquisition is the painfully overlong process.

Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:53 pm

The reason i ask is because i can't take too much time away from work, but i am my own boss so i could maybe take 5days off. More then that, at this time of the year, wouldn't be possible. And if i wait till im less busy then we will have to cancel our trip.. And the trip is for work so... Don't want to cancel it. Someone i know who rebuilt some vw's for family friends, took the engine out of the van and has quoted me at 3800$. My girlfriend and i are debating on getting him to do it...

cegammel
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by cegammel » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:09 pm

You won't be happy with it. Even if you screw up while building it yourself, you will know how to fix the mistakes. If you leave to someone else, they will screw it up, and you will be stuck. These are old cars, and they require constant care. It is important to know them inside and out in order to provide that care.

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SlowLane
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by SlowLane » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:50 pm

Dave91 wrote:The reason i ask is because i can't take too much time away from work, but i am my own boss so i could maybe take 5days off. More then that, at this time of the year, wouldn't be possible. And if i wait till im less busy then we will have to cancel our trip.. And the trip is for work so... Don't want to cancel it. Someone i know who rebuilt some vw's for family friends, took the engine out of the van and has quoted me at 3800$. My girlfriend and i are debating on getting him to do it...
My advice is plan to take another car on this upcoming trip and not place the additional pressure of an engine rebuild onto it. You really don't want to rush the engine rebuild. Even the most minor setback (like eg. discovering you've purchased main bearings that are out-of-round) could cause you to take shortcuts or make decisions that you will regret later if you are working to a deadline.

Pointedly ask your family friend if he has rebuilt a type IV before, or if his previous experience is on type 1 engines. Experience gained from working on one engine type doesn't always transfer well to the other, and can even be detrimental or harmful if one makes too many assumptions about their similarities.

It took me the better part of a year to rebuild my engine. I ended up buying many parts twice, because having gone with the cheap option first (almost invariably purchased from CIP1), I discovered that the parts were not up to snuff and had to go for the more expensive quality item from vendors like German Supply.

In case you missed it, there are a couple of broad tips in that last paragraph.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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asiab3
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by asiab3 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:39 pm

If I were to pay someone money to build a Type 4 engine for me, I would ask them a set of questions before even a cent or signature is exchanged.

My list would be something like:
- Do you use copper "head gasket" sealing rings? Why or why not? And what else do you do to compensate? [they should mention a yes or a no, with some kind of detail about steps in the cylinder head, cylinder base shims, and potentially even mention rod notching.]
- What is the torque specification for the oil strainer bolt and why? [9 ft lbs, or you'll shatter the cam bearing support]
- What compression ratio do you recommend for my particular application? [this is a bit more open ended, but they should have an idea, and give reasons why that include things like reliability and economy, not speed or power.]
- What parts do you use new, and what parts do you refurbish? [I like the correct T4 oil pump, not the new "HD" bug pumps. Anybody trying to "wow" you with a list of new parts also needs to be thoroughly vetted. Pistons and cylinders? Sure! Cam and lifters? Yes. I don't like seeing ads for engines with lists like "new distributor, new hardware, new engine tin, new pulleys, new everything!]

If the answers to any of those questions are "don't worry about it," "it doesn't matter," or "trust me I've been doing this for XX years," run far away, and quickly, with your money.

Just my two cents,
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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the miz
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by the miz » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:53 am

asiab3 wrote: If the answers to any of those questions are "don't worry about it," "it doesn't matter," or "trust me I've been doing this for XX years," run far away, and quickly, with your money.

Just my two cents,
Robbie
...amen! Again:
-if I knew then what I know now, I'd have just done it myself.
-if I had it to do all over again, I'd do it myself.

miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:32 am

We decided to do t ourselves and i will clean up my shop and do it there which will be perfect, i am just wondering, realistically how much time it takes ABOUT! I know that no one will have the same answer, but i would just like to know how log it takes on average for someone with the books who doesn't have much experience with engines...
Thank you!

Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:51 am

cegammel wrote: Cam shaft and lifter set $250? I forget....
!
Hey! just wondering if this is cam shaft and Hydraulic Lifter set??
http://www.evwparts.com/vwparts/022109021A.html
I can find cam shaft but the lifter set im not sure what that is....
Thanks!

Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:03 pm

Also, what size crankshaft is in the 1980 A/C 2.0L??
All sites are asking if its OEM vw or Undersized...

Dave91
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by Dave91 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:24 pm

Hi, sorry for a fourth post in a row... I got a list together with prices and links, a lot of parts i found at EVWparts.com or Van-Cafe
Not sure if these are quality parts but i figured they are since they are from good websites.
I avoided looking on ebay just incase...

-Gasket set. $70---------------SALE: $49.50-----
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_621

-Pistons and cylinders. $450----------- $399.95--------
http://www.evwparts.com/volkswagen/Type ... inder.html

-Heads, rebuild or replace $500-900------------- $439.95--------
http://www.evwparts.com/volkswagen/Type4CylHead.html

-Cam shaft and lifter set $250? I forget.... --------$194.95------- ****With bearings
http://www.evwparts.com/vwparts/Type4Ca ... 9021A.html

-Crankshaft bearings $80

-Cam bearings $30------- $19.95------ *********
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_7 ... -p706.html

-Rod bearings $30 --------$18.95--------
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_2 ... .50mm.html

-Front and rear oil seals $20-----

cegammel
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by cegammel » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:36 pm

That looks right for the cam and lifters. The lifters I used were cheaper, and have caused problems...

You will want to use a micrometer and measure the crankshaft. If it is out of round or beaten, it will have ro be turned to the next undersize. The case may also have to be align bored. If so, you will need bearings to fit. My recommendation is to take the crankshaft and case to a machine shop and have them measure. If needed, they can do the work and get you the appropriate bearing sizes. Measuring is a little tricky. Precise tools are required. Chances are, the crankshaft and case are probably ok...but don't assume. If they are good, then buy stock bearings. You will need plastigauge to measure your saddle clearances, as well as rod bearing clearances.

Be very aware that many shops have no idea what they are doing on vw engines...they treat them like big lawnmowers, and we get crap life out them as a result.

Also don't assume that your engine hasn't been opened before. A previous owner may have already turned the crankshaft...

cegammel
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Re: Rebuild or swap?!

Post by cegammel » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:40 pm

Oh! The gasket set you linked is just head gaskets...you need the full engine gasket set...

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