Whats w this motor?

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SlowLane
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by SlowLane » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:05 am

If you get it down to the short block and determine that is a largely unmolested 1700 (with the exception of hydraulic lifters), consider that it might be worth good coin to a 914 collector, perhaps worth enough to sell and then pay for a correct CV-code engine.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
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energyturtle
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by energyturtle » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:31 am

That's hilarious. At least it's got a good TRANNY. Ha,ha. Yes the pun was absolutely intended. Good luck with Caitlyn. He will find out soon enough if he will be crowned BEST TRANNY of the pageant. Maybe drop a mid mounted, blown, alcohol fueled, flame throwing monster in it? He would then be a TRUE DRAG QUEEN!
Scottie

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Bleyseng
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by Bleyseng » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:33 am

SlowLane wrote:If you get it down to the short block and determine that is a largely unmolested 1700 (with the exception of hydraulic lifters), consider that it might be worth good coin to a 914 collector, perhaps worth enough to sell and then pay for a correct CV-code engine.
Nope, still lots of 1.7L 914's out there trying to upgrade to the 2.0L 914 100hp engine....It is a good case for a rebuilt engine but it's been in a vanagon so maybe not.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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AZ Landshaper
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by AZ Landshaper » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:23 pm

Pulled the front seats from the van today while cleaning and found a receipt from a shop in NM from 03. Receipt is for a rebuilt engine. Doesnt get more timely than this. I bought this van 6 weeks ago from someone who contacted me based on a mailer I did. She bought it from a guy in NM. Now I not only have some info on a rebuild but I have the ph no of the owner in 03 and the shop that did the work. Someones gonna be getting a call manana.

On another note, if this is a 1700 and I have it built to 2.0 cant I just use the FI and other parts Ive been using? Dont need to hunt down a GE or CV or what ever is vanagon appropriate do I?

Is it poss to get a 100hp engine out of this case?

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Bleyseng
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by Bleyseng » Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:59 pm

100hp? Sure, new AMC HAM heads with 42x36 valves, stock 71mm crank, rods, 94mm pistons, Raby 9590 cam and lifters plus valvetrain kit presto 100hp and over 120 ft lbs of torque!! Weee, freeway speeds of 70mph
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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SlowLane
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by SlowLane » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:59 am

AZ Landshaper wrote:Pulled the front seats from the van today while cleaning and found a receipt from a shop in NM from 03. Receipt is for a rebuilt engine. Doesnt get more timely than this. I bought this van 6 weeks ago from someone who contacted me based on a mailer I did. She bought it from a guy in NM. Now I not only have some info on a rebuild but I have the ph no of the owner in 03 and the shop that did the work. Someones gonna be getting a call manana.
Hopefully the shop will still be around and that they will have records from as far back as 2003. Even if you have that information, you still have 13 intervening years of PO meddling, so whatever information you can get from the builder will still only be a starting point. Since it was a rebuild for your van, however, it seems likely that it was rebuilt as a 2.0L, just happened to use the 1.7L case.
On another note, if this is a 1700 and I have it built to 2.0 cant I just use the FI and other parts I've been using? Don't need to hunt down a GE or CV or what ever is Vanagon appropriate do I?
If the "W" case was just used as the basis of a built-up 2.0L engine with a Vanagon camshaft and approximately the correct CR, then no, you certainly don't need the GE or CV case. However, there may be some oil passage differences between the cases that your builder will need to be aware of.
Is it poss to get a 100hp engine out of this case?
As Geoff so blithely put it, yes, it's possible. It's unlikely to be as "presto" as he states, however. He's basically describing a Raby Camper Special. Go price one of those before you decide to pull the trigger. Then price out the cost of a Subaru or Bostig or VW 4-cyl or Audi 5-cyl or what-have-you conversion. Plenty of those being discussed on TheSamba Vanagon board (sometimes it seems that they discuss nothing but.)
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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Bleyseng
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:00 pm

The oil passage differences are the early W case has the two oil control valves while the GE late cases have the one for better oil supply to the lifters. A metal rod in the second control does the same thing. The W case is stronger than the later GE cases, more robust main webs etc.
If you are rebuilding then you are buying :
Heads hopefully from HAM or Type4store $2000
Pistons/cylinders- AA----------- 300
cam&lifters kit 9590 500
rod rebuilding, bearings, gaskets, misc 500
Clutch, flywheel resurfacing, 250
basic total $3500
machining, extras 500
Total $4000
If you can buy and install a suby for that go ahead
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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AZ Landshaper
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by AZ Landshaper » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:52 pm

Im going aircooled. Ive already got an 85 Westy that Im seriouisly considering as a Bostig candidate. This one is staying aircooled for nostalgia purposes if nothing else. Ive always loved the aircooled motor and dont see me running hoses etc.
Also looks to me that the 9590 has gone up in price to 900 unless you want the super duper in which case add 150.
I met with a machinist this morning over pizza and hes ready and willing to clean and line bore this case if I decide I cant make it run as Id like. Hes been doing VWs for 2 decades. If this happens Ill be back here w/ 1million Qs as Ive never been deeper into the type 4 than a new set of jugs.
My label says Im new but Ive spread blood sweat and tears all over type 4 motors from BC to Oaxaca, just never with FI or hydraulic lifters.

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Bleyseng
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by Bleyseng » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:44 am

9590 cam and lifters isn't hydraulic that goodness. It's very quiet once you get the "0" lash figured out.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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SlowLane
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by SlowLane » Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:13 am

AZ Landshaper wrote:Im going aircooled. Ive already got an 85 Westy that Im seriouisly considering as a Bostig candidate. This one is staying aircooled for nostalgia purposes if nothing else. Ive always loved the aircooled motor and dont see me running hoses etc.
Good on ya. I only raised the possibility of a swap 'cause I had no idea of your background. It's far too common that someone comes here or TheSamba asking "how can I get more power?" without knowing what they are getting into.
I met with a machinist this morning over pizza and hes ready and willing to clean and line bore this case if I decide I cant make it run as Id like. Hes been doing VWs for 2 decades.
If he has been working on type 1 engines for 2 decades with no type IV experience, you might be better off going to a machinist who has only worked on Hondas. :cherry:

I'm exaggerating, of course, but my point is that lessons deeply ingrained from type 1 experience don't necessarily transfer to the type IV, and he might end up making assumptions about the job that someone with no VW experience wouldn't.

I haven't seen it myself, but I have heard that the Bug Me video for the type IV engine featuring Jake Raby is a worthwhile investment.
My label says Im new but Ive spread blood sweat and tears all over type 4 motors from BC to Oaxaca, just never with FI or hydraulic lifters.
BC? British Columbia or Baja California?
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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AZ Landshaper
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by AZ Landshaper » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:00 pm

British Columbia to Oaxaca in 1995. In the months after Jerry passed.
He seemed be familiar with type 4 and the fact that bus motors are diff.
Are they non magnesium? He was alluding to that and that a type 4 is more durable than the type 1 case and may not need to be line bored (what ever that means).
Im considering the bug me video as well. If anyone out there has a copy and no longer needs it, PM me.
I actually collected quite a few bennies back in the dead tour days by fixing motors and aiding trustafarians who were broke down. Mostly just lapping valves and setting timing and points and fixing vac leaks. I typically travel with a small bag of clothes and a huge box of tools.

No surprise that no one working at the shop that rebuilt my motor is 03 is still there. Par for this course.

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SlowLane
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by SlowLane » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:22 pm

AZ Landshaper wrote: He seemed be familiar with type 4 and the fact that bus motors are diff.
Are they non magnesium? He was alluding to that and that a type 4 is more durable than the type 1 case and may not need to be line bored (what ever that means).
Type IV cases are aluminum. They are not as prone to having their main bearing saddles pounded out-of-round as are magnesium type 1 cases. A line-bore restores roundness and straightness to a case's bearing saddles. They have become almost de rigueur for rebuilding type 1 engine (and possibly sometimes not necessary). It's a good sign that your machinist knows the difference.

Ultimately what machine work will be required, if any, will depend on how your case measures up on the bench. Things like low oil pressure can indicate loose tolerances beforehand, but it's not until you actually get the fine measurement tools out that you can know for sure.

I suspect that you will find that your bottom end is fine, and possibly even the pistons and cylinders are okay. The AVP heads I would look at with deep suspicion.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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Bleyseng
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by Bleyseng » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:45 am

Bus cases still tend to be pounded out where the main saddles are out of round so line boring cures that. Cranks are bomb proof pretty much and need a polish unless deeply scored. Take the rods in for rebuilding along with the crank for inspection. All new bearings (cheap) pistons/cylinders along with new heads get you to a new engine. Spin balance every rotating part together (take them in to a shop) as that really smooths the engine out.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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AZ Landshaper
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by AZ Landshaper » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:31 am

Dug further into the motor and previous owners. On 1 note the motor is a JCS rebuild. 94 mm pistons and almost definitely a 2 liter. Unfortunately JCS has a mixed review background. On another note I tracked down the previous owners. 1of them is living in Santa Fe the other passed on Feb 26 and the memorial was heald on Fri of last week (what timing). May she RIP. I'm calling JCS in 30 to see what they know about this motor if anything. Not sure it matters. Aside from te low comp in cyl 1 I wa able to get a bit more power out of it when I replaced the dizzy last night w a 009 ( ouch). Seems mine doesn't return to idle setting (7.5) after a good rev.
Another Q for the wizards of odd. Am I able to lengthen the wires to my Petronix mod or does that screw something up? After putting my 009 back power was much better and engine cooler but the re is a deff miss as I accelerate. I was thinking this may be due to a splice in both wires. I'm sure many know the damn petro mod doesn't have a very long set of wires and won't reach my coil when mounted to the left side wall. WTF is that about?

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SlowLane
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Re: Whats w this motor?

Post by SlowLane » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:11 pm

Extending your Pertronix wires a couple of feet shouldn't make any difference, as long as you used the same gauge of wire or larger and ensured a good connection.

Recommend that you disassemble, clean, lube and reassemble your original dizzy. You would be amazed at how much smoother the engine runs.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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