Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

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Amskeptic
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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Amskeptic » Mon May 16, 2016 5:33 am

the miz wrote:
MountainPrana wrote:
Thanks so much miz!

My wife and I's friend Missy took this photo in the Southern Utah desert during a canyoneering trip. We had met out there to poke around some canyons off of Hole In The Rock Road. After an uneventful canyoneering weekend we started to head back up the 35 or so miles of heavily washboarded dirt road when Odyssa started to buck and protest like a wild horse that didn't want to go back to the barn. I found a huge crack in the hose from the crank case breather to the AFM elbow and repaired it but still no go. We ended up having to tow her behind Missy's Astro van El Unicornio Blanco back into the town of Escalante where the local mechanic cleaned up the oxygen sensor in the AFM and we were on our way. Although very grateful, I was also disappointed in myself for not being able to troubleshoot and fix the problem on my own. What if Missy hadn't of been there to tow us back? I had gone through the FI troubleshooting section of the Bentley Manual but hadn't even thought the logic through of "a ton of dust sucked into the system = dirty sensing components" Indeed I didn't even know the AFM system well enough to understand what was going on. Rebuilding the wiring harness over the winter helped me with understanding that process which recently had great depth and breadth added to it by reading the AFM adjustment topic on here. All this is to say that no matter how much we see out of our own windows, there is always opportunity to reframe our experience and learn more if we are open to it.

Tim
Wow, that's quite the story! I think I know approximately where you were...pretty remote and the conditions can be a bit harsh depending on the time of year. Isn't it nice to find a decent and helpful mechanic when you really need one? I always think I'd rather do indepth trouble shooting in the wilderness instead of on a busy interstate shoulder...if food, water and time were no issue. Unfortunately, breaking down in the middle of nowhere with no idea what is wrong is not as attractive to the rest of my family who watch too many movies and subscribe to urban legends, etc.... :pale:. Maybe that's not too far off, there are a few towns in that part of the world that give off a bit of a "village of the damned" type vibe.
Certainly, having time to diagnose in the safety and comfort of one's garage...where there are no knife wielding maniacs and where Colin is only a PM away...is the best case. :sunny:
miz
I'll be out that way . . . wielding my GumOut.
Coliac
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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the miz
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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Tue May 17, 2016 9:48 am

...quick update: the engine has been reinstalled, connected, etc., but I ran into dead battery issues and couldn't get started, hoping the battery will take a charge and I can get started tonight...otherwise I'll be getting a new battery.
-stay tuned...
miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Thu May 19, 2016 6:23 pm

Ok, so I've got my battery issues solved, for the time being. The engine turned right over but seemed to be running a bit rough...backfiring, carb spitting back...kinda noisy...and then it died after a few minutes of running. I started it again...same issues...only this time it died more quickly...even more so on the third try.
How could this be?...I thought to myself...I was told it ran well in the shop for 2 hours and that it was timed perfectly before it was shipped back!
Now it seems I'm in no better place than I was a few months ago when I sent this thing back!

BellePlaine's reaction was "timing"...which is kind of where my instinct was leading too.

How can you adjust timing if you can't keep the engine running...is there a good starting place?

Now, I'm not sure if this means anything...or not...but before I sent the engine back, the timing was verified as good, by BellePlaine and myself...and confirmed by Adrian. At that time the two white and black lines I'd previously drawn on the distributor body and clamp lined up...as you can see, they are now off by a good 45*.
Image

Now...this migtht have meant something before the engine was taken apart for cam replacement, but I'm not sure it does now...any thoughts from anyone?
For what it's worth, the rotor still lines up with the notch in the distributor body when at TDC for #1...

Any thoughts on where to go with this would be appreciated...
-miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by MountainPrana » Thu May 19, 2016 7:41 pm

the miz wrote: How can you adjust timing if you can't keep the engine running...is there a good starting place?
-miz
Do you know how to use a static timing light? You can find out where your timing is set currently without having the engine running, adjust it one way or the other and if it doesn't help simply return it back to where you started. Let me know if you don't understand static timing and I can give you the rap on it.

Tim

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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Bleyseng » Thu May 19, 2016 7:48 pm

yes, find number one TDC and static time the engine.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Fri May 20, 2016 11:05 am

Bleyseng wrote:yes, find number one TDC and static time the engine.
MountainPrana wrote: Do you know how to use a static timing light? You can find out where your timing is set currently without having the engine running, adjust it one way or the other and if it doesn't help simply return it back to where you started. Let me know if you don't understand static timing and I can give you the rap on it.
Tim


Thanks for this guys! It has taken me a few hours to get over the initial disappointment of failure at start up and the realization that the promises made with regard to the operating condition of the engine were again, untrue. I'd really wanted to drive my bus to work today; hopefully the current issue is just as simple as timing.

Now, I've never static timed an engine before, so I'll need to do a little research and find a test light .

Initial questions:
-all of the resources I've found reference breaker points...I have breaker-less points...and am not getting the analog. Where would I place the lead on the test light...to the spot on the coil where the positive wire to the points attaches?

Also, one VW resource had this included:
Lift off the cap and find the notch on the rim of the distributor body, either by sight or by running your fingernail around the rim under the #1 spark plug wire. You will find the notch at about 5 o'clock on vacuum distributors and about 7 o'clock on the 009 distributor (these two types of distributors are 90 degrees different from one another).
...so I have no vacuum on my distributor, this must mean it is an 009, correct?
If so...the notch is definitely at 5:00 and not at 7:00...but if I were to realign my old paint lines, by rotating the distributor ~45*, the notch would be at ~7:00, would it not? Is this a red herring or am I onto something?
Note notch position with regard to paint line offset:
Image

In the meanwhile, I'll keep reading up on static timing, although I think I get the basic premise. I'll be sure to reachout if I come up with more questions or need more assistance.

Thanks again,
miz
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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Bleyseng » Fri May 20, 2016 5:29 pm

Again you must find TDC for #1 cylinder (top dead center). It should line up with the notch on the fan to 0 degrees on the scale. That is where you time the spark to happen with the static timing method. or use a VOM meter so the 12v happens right as you turn the dizzy to open the points. Now you know its TDC for #1 spark plug so install the wires so #1 is in that firing point in the cap. Put the rest in the correct order -1-4-3-2 of firing.
Who cares where your old mark is as they could have install the dizzy drive all wonky...... Time the engine as it is.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Amskeptic » Sat May 21, 2016 4:33 am

the miz wrote:Ok, so I've got my battery issues solved, for the time being. The engine turned right over but seemed to be running a bit rough...backfiring, carb spitting back...kinda noisy...and then it died after a few minutes of running.

BellePlaine's reaction was "timing"...which is kind of where my instinct was leading too.

Any thoughts on where to go with this would be appreciated...
-miz
Let's stay away from mucking with the architecture of your engine set-up.
To test timing without mucking up your infernal "electronical-like" ignition, just hook up the stroboscopic timing light on #1 and point it at the scale while your assistant cranks the engine. During cranking, you should see the flash hit the timing mark and it can be anywhere around 5*ATDC to maybe"0" or up to to 7.5BTDC, anywhere in the vicinity. If you need to adjust, set it to 7.5* BTDC or heck 8 BTDC, 8 is easier to read, initially.

I am going to assume, what the heck, that the plugs fouled. As your engine sat there coughing and sputtering, did you manage to rev it up a bit, or were you keeping down at idle? Back in the dragster days, you had to keep the plugs clean because there was so much fuel at the ready. My Porsche 911 was no different. It had six Zenith Stromberg carburetors and if you did not load up the engine and get it moving in short order, a plug would foul, then that would drag another cylinder down and if you pumped the accelerator one time too many trying to keep it running, it would drown.

Maybe the first start after an overnight sit will have aired the engine enough to let you start it first thing. Once it is running, get the throttles opening, rev it firmly between idle and 3,000 rpm, get the engine up to where it will run even if badly and get it warm, think: clean the plugs with heat, get the liquid gasoline out of the intakes, warm up the engine and then you can bring it down to slower rpms and try to rough-in idle speed adjustment. An engine that was set up across the country and shipped, is not as likely to have a timing irregularity as a stuck float/needle valve in the carburetors. Rap the inlets gently with a wrench under fuel pressure if you suspect the fuel bowls have not filled, although you could also check for accelerator pump spritz in the throats, ya got spritz? ya got gas!

If it refuses to get its act together there at the first new start of the day, pull the easiest spark plug.
Is it wet?
Clean all of them GumOut spray, dry, check gaps, and try to start again.

Is it bone dry?
Who forgot to plug in the fuel pump wire? Or, if the pump is certifiably running, do you have a fresh charge of sufficient gallonage in the gas in the tank?

Keep me posted! Keep us posted! All of you helpful people, please think carefully about not exploding the variables on our poor suffering the miz. Do not irresponsibly send him down dead-ends. Think carefully. Engines need just
air
fuel
spark.

If it runs however briefly, it has a spark. Why go mess with the timing? This is not a nice mellow 34 Pict 3 carburetor spitting fire (that maybe timing), this is a bunch of wild horses honking big carbs that will spit on a good day.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Sat May 21, 2016 6:16 am

Thanks for the additional input, Colin.
I will probably try all of these things today in a effort to get this engine running. FWIW: I did get to rev it up a bit during its 5 minute initial run, during the revs is when the flames were shooting out of the air cleaner. BTW: I took the 40 IDF carbs off before I sent the engine back, the 32/26 DFEV is now in place...in case that bit of subtlety matters.
Fuel pump is definitely plugged in...did it myself, can hear it running when ignition is hot. We have a semi fresh charge of gas...remember the bus hasn't moved on its own since July, but I've added fuel from my gas cans.
Thanks again for the suggestions!
Miz
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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by MountainPrana » Sat May 21, 2016 8:53 am

Amskeptic wrote:Keep me posted! Keep us posted! All of you helpful people, please think carefully about not exploding the variables on our poor suffering the miz. Do not irresponsibly send him down dead-ends. Think carefully. Engines need just
air
fuel
spark.

If it runs however briefly, it has a spark. Why go mess with the timing?
I need to reassess my skills to rookie... the more I read on here the more I realize how little I really do know... and I am ever so grateful for the tutelage :study:
Amskeptic wrote:I'll be out that way . . . wielding my GumOut.
Coliac
The camping is better on Spencer Flats Road a few miles to the east of Hole in The Rock Road (BLM 200) and the road is way more friendly, with sweeping views to the east of the escalante river area.

Molly is gone for the weekend to Park City and it's dumping rain here. So off to the garage to work on cleaning that 30 years plus worth of gunk from Odyssa's undercarriage.
Odyssa1.jpg
Odyssa1.jpg (59.68 KiB) Viewed 344 times
Timmayyouronlydeadendsbetheonesyouchoosetotake

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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Sat May 21, 2016 10:47 am

MountainPrana wrote: Molly is gone for the weekend to Park City and it's dumping rain here. So off to the garage to work on cleaning that 30 years plus worth of gunk from Odyssa's undercarriage.
Odyssa1.jpg
Timmayyouronlydeadendsbetheonesyouchoosetotake
...ooh, Tim...nice Blue Westy...I had one sold out from under me 2 weeks before I bought Vana...it would have been called "Der Blaue Reiter".
Have fun in your garage...when the wife's away...that's the best time to monkey around with one's bus. As my wife pointed out this morning:
"Colin is single, right?" To which I replied: "...yeah...and doing this kind of stuff is his job!".

miz
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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Sat May 21, 2016 11:14 am

Amskeptic wrote: Keep me posted! Keep us posted! All of you helpful people, please think carefully about not exploding the variables on our poor suffering the miz. Do not irresponsibly send him down dead-ends. Think carefully. Engines need just
air
fuel
spark.
Colin,
Thanks for the application of Occam's Razor in this situation.
In the words of The Dude: "Oh, man. My thinking about this case has become very uptight."

So, I went through Colin's suggested procedures: started her up cold and revved right away...drowned...died.

Ok...let's check the plugs; pulled plug 1, wet...a bit black...but not so bad it couldn't be reasonably cleaned with Gum Out. Plugs 2 and 4...same story.
Pulled Plug 3...and found this:
Image

...and then this:
Image

...maybe this could be a problem, I thought to myself.
Pulled out an old #3 plug wire and a spare lightly used Bosch Super Plus I had lying around from last summer...because I don't throw away VW parts until they are completely FUBAR (Vana's had 4.5 new sets of plugs since last July) and installed them.
Ok, let's give this a go: turned right over...revved and held for ~ 2 minutes...got out...she stayed running...revved her up a bit...and again...no carb spit...no backfire...timing sounds pretty reasonable...fiddled with the throttle cable and the idle screw a bit...still running...sounding pretty darned good!
Let her run for 30 minutes...no problems...other than a lot of oil smoke...I mean a lot of oil smoke...after 30 minutes of seemingly strong running, I shut the engine down to come in and write this post about my progress while the engine cools down...before I head out to see what's leaking...probably the number 2 exhaust push rod tube and the 1-2 head cover...

Thought you'd all like to know:
Image


...stay tuned for more...

Thanks all!
mizhavingaprettygoodsaturdaysofar
1982 Westy- Vana White

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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Amskeptic » Sun May 22, 2016 2:11 pm

the miz wrote:[
...and then this:
Image


Let her run for 30 minutes...no problems...other than a lot of oil smoke... what's leaking...probably the number 2 exhaust push rod tube and the 1-2 head cover...
Congratulations!
Say . . . there's this guy in Jacksonville who had four smashed up spark plugs from a certain engine rebuilder out in California. We just can't figure out how this happens. (?)

Oil leaks from the push rod tubes on an Adrian engine usually means that Adrian left out the serpentine wire push rod tube retainers.
So . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . did you have serpentine springs on your engine originally? You want them back.

Keep us posted on the sorting out process.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by the miz » Mon May 23, 2016 10:39 am

Amskeptic wrote: Congratulations!
Say . . . there's this guy in Jacksonville who had four smashed up spark plugs from a certain engine rebuilder out in California. We just can't figure out how this happens. (?)
Yeah...well it certainly didn't go out to Vista that way...and clearly the engine wouldn't run with the plug and connector in that condition...which means it must have happened in the crating/shipping process...but how??? :scratch:
I mean, Plug #3 is pretty well protected...and it's not like there was a bunch of heavy stuff floating around in the crate...
How does this happen? I haven't the faintest notion...I guess it will remain a mystery?
Amskeptic wrote: Oil leaks from the push rod tubes on an Adrian engine usually means that Adrian left out the serpentine wire push rod tube retainers.
So . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . did you have serpentine springs on your engine originally? You want them back.
...no the springs are still there. Turns out the leaks are mostly on the 3-4 side...Adrian push rod tubes tend to leak because of this silver silicone caulky stuff he uses to seal them. It looks like there are leaks on both intake and exhaust on #3 and on the intake on #4...they might be "minor" drips...I tried the Bleyseng Twist 'em a little bit method...possibly to little avail? The bigger issue was that the valve cover on 3-4 was pissing oil. I replaced the gasket...still leaked. I rotated the cover 180*...still leaked. I move the cover from 3-4 to 1-2...3-4 stayed dry...1-2 leaked. So, at least the leak is isolated to the cover or its gasket. I'll replace the gasket again tonight. If that doesn't work, BellePlaine has a spare cover he'll lend me to see if that will do the trick. Hopefully, with that leak fixed, the push rod tubes will be minimal...I plan to leave that until Colin visits...as changing a push rod tube seems to be what precipitated this mess int he first place. I just want to mitigate hemorrhagic oil leaks so that I can actually drive my bus !
Amskeptic wrote: Keep us posted on the sorting out process.
Colin
I will...stay tuned!

miz
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Re: Headflow Masters Turnkey Engine

Post by Bleyseng » Mon May 23, 2016 1:02 pm

The caulky stuff should be the sealant Raby uses which works pretty good. The twisting method is when you install the pushrod tubes when inserting them into the case and seating them home into the head. Rotate the tubes 90' so not to pinch the O rings and seat them in as they kind of suck into place.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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