Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:46 pm

VWinVT wrote:So...what's a fella to do if he needs a rebuild?,!? I don't right now, but the day may come.
Acquire parts and by all means do your own rebuild.

The 2020 Itinerary will be two laps of the country with ten customers per lap for one week each visit
A) Teardown / Parts Order

B) Re-assembly / Break-In / 300 mile test drive

$2,000.00 per customer
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:02 pm

2020? I might be dead by then .... but maybe not. Plan on doing a little refresh this winter, so maybe due for a rebuild in five years :flower:
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...8 completely solid lifters.... now it's both kinda noisy and leaky, but she sure runs good!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
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wcfvw69
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by wcfvw69 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:10 pm

While I've never rebuilt a type 4 engine, I can't see where it would be that much more difficult than a type 1 that I have. I agree with Colin. Rebuild it yourself. Shipping heads off to be rebuilt would be cheaper than shipping a short block. I'd think most machine shops could polish/turn the crank and rods.

The other thing that just seems odd to me is how the only two shops that get talked about for type 4 engine rebuilds are Headflow masters and Jake, when he was doing them. You'd think there would be a lot more engine builders out there who do good work on type 4 engines..
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by airkooledchris » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:31 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
VWinVT wrote:So...what's a fella to do if he needs a rebuild?,!? I don't right now, but the day may come.
Acquire parts and by all means do your own rebuild.

The 2020 Itinerary will be two laps of the country with ten customers per lap for one week each visit
A) Teardown / Parts Order

B) Re-assembly / Break-In / 300 mile test drive

$2,000.00 per customer

id do that.
1979 California Transporter

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by BellePlaine » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:18 pm

me too
1975 Riviera we call "Spider-Man"

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by VWinVT » Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:58 pm

Ok...please someone explain to me why the Bug motors can be rebuilt and modified to produce a lot of horsepower? Why can't this be done to the type 4 bus/vanagon motors? Or maybe it can and I am just late/missing the party?!?! Yes, I am watching garage squad on velocity right now...

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by airkooledchris » Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:46 pm

VWinVT wrote:Ok...please someone explain to me why the Bug motors can be rebuilt and modified to produce a lot of horsepower? Why can't this be done to the type 4 bus/vanagon motors? Or maybe it can and I am just late/missing the party?!?! Yes, I am watching garage squad on velocity right now...

VW already did that to those motors when they built them.

Chances are that if you have a T4 motor now and aren't happy with the horsepower you have, you would be ecstatic with how much you have when it's built back up fresh with total stock components. Built CORRECTLY with stock components that is. I used to always dream about the Raby motors (when he was doing them) thinking that even the 2.0's were just not cutting it. I eventually happened upon a bus who's stock motor (hydraulic lifters) really put that notion to bed. It's not the best of builds as it runs hot unless you are rich with the mixture, but it's got all the power anyone would ever need. Someone just slapped bone stock AMC heads back onto a stock block as a quick and dirty refresh - but it's pulling it's own no problem.

I would avoid going with all of the custom cams and bullshit that's out there until you drive a stock one, setup well, and have decided that even that isn't good enough. Then you have to decide if you want to drop the kind of coin needed to correctly upgrade a T4 or just go the Subaru route.



As for headflow masters - it really is a shame there isn't at least 2 or 3 other shops like him. I think if he was a little less busy he might be able to take the time to work out all of these little issues. If he's as backed up as it sounds like he is, all the time, he's not in a position where he has to change.
1979 California Transporter

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by VWinVT » Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:12 pm

I am quite happy with the power of my current engine, except for steep/steeper hills (especially when fully loaded (81 vanagon Westy)). After 3 years of learning curve :study: repairs, it accelerates and holds speeds on mild inclines. I am starting to understand what u mean when u talk about a properly built/tuned aircooled engine .... it will perform well.
One of my concerns is climate control/air conditioning.....my wife and I are both teachers and have Summers to travel the country with the kids. We r a bit concerned about traveling out west in July/ August, fully loaded, without a/c. I know Jegs makes an all electric a/c compressor and small car has an in dash unit but that is MAJOR $$$. It's not easy to have your cake and eat it too.... :occasion5:

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:47 pm

VWinVT wrote:We r a bit concerned about traveling out west in July/ August, fully loaded, without a/c.
NAAH, open the friggen windows and strip down a little. The Vanagon has effective windows and fresh air ventilation. A kid can wear a wrung-out damp t-shirt and get effective evaporation west of Texas just from the lower humidity. Stay moving in the peak heat (2-6PM) of day
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by dingo » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:47 am

1. hill climbing is an important issue....but does that not relate to torque instead of horsepower ?

2. How does an engine builder make money building Type 4 engines to the expectation of owners/drivers ? and still be cheaper than Subbie ? There is the rapidly decreasing availability of good factory parts, the aftermarket sub-quality uberkrap and/or used parts....which itself takes so much time and meticulous micro inspection just to verify usability ? Installation, shipping, warranty, returns...it is obviouosly a sustainable business or it wouldnt exist, but still, it boggles my mind...what am i missing in this picture ?
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';78 Tranzporter 2L

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by VWinVT » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:12 am

dingo wrote:1. hill climbing is an important issue....but does that not relate to torque instead of horsepower ?

2. How does an engine builder make money building Type 4 engines to the expectation of owners/drivers ? and still be cheaper than Subbie ? There is the rapidly decreasing availability of good factory parts, the aftermarket sub-quality uberkrap and/or used parts....which itself takes so much time and meticulous micro inspection just to verify usability ? Installation, shipping, warranty, returns...it is obviouosly a sustainable business or it wouldnt exist, but still, it boggles my mind...what am i missing in this picture ?
1. I always thought it was horsepower that allowed you to maintain speed on hills.

2. I don't get it either....the type 1 motors have many quality options and can be modified to make lots of HP...maybe we should be putting those motors in our busses....

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by asiab3 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:48 pm

VWinVT wrote:
dingo wrote:1. hill climbing is an important issue....but does that not relate to torque instead of horsepower ?

2. How does an engine builder make money building Type 4 engines to the expectation of owners/drivers ? and still be cheaper than Subbie ? There is the rapidly decreasing availability of good factory parts, the aftermarket sub-quality uberkrap and/or used parts....which itself takes so much time and meticulous micro inspection just to verify usability ? Installation, shipping, warranty, returns...it is obviouosly a sustainable business or it wouldnt exist, but still, it boggles my mind...what am i missing in this picture ?
1. I always thought it was horsepower that allowed you to maintain speed on hills.

2. I don't get it either....the type 1 motors have many quality options and can be modified to make lots of HP...maybe we should be putting those motors in our busses....
1. Without filling our forums with gobbledygook, horsepower is a function of torque. Horsepower includes the function of time and distance relating to torque, so power = force X distance ÷ time. Torque is a force being applied, horsepower is measuring how much work the force (torque) can do.

2. Type 1 motors have MANY more poor-quality options than quality options. T4 engines have not been "blessed" with crap-tastic catalogs full of garbage parts that destroy your hard work. Because of this, the T4 parts find their way through networks of people who deal with this "capitalism loophole" that allows the quality parts to be the only option, however more elusive they are.

The T1 modifications to make as much power as a stock 2.0 T4 overwhelm the T1 cooling system in short order. The oiling system of the T4 is also superior, so the core engine is more protected over the long haul.

At least that's how I see it………
Robbie :geek:
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by 71whitewesty » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:01 pm

Since this is the Head Flow Masters thread, I thought I'd check today to see how many miles I've driven since June on the 1600 dp.
No kidding, I had to double check on a calculator.... 8,888 miles! What are the chances of that!
I've been giving it a rest the last couple of weeks and driving my other bus but it's ready to road trip anytime.
No leaks yet either..... :cheers:

ps, unlimited mileage warranty for 12 months. :thumbleft:

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dingo
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by dingo » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:47 pm

Type 1 motors have MANY more poor-quality options than quality options. T4 engines have not been "blessed" with crap-tastic catalogs full of garbage parts that destroy your hard work. Because of this, the T4 parts find their way through networks of people who deal with this "capitalism loophole" that allows the quality parts to be the only option, however more elusive they are.

i dont think it has anything to do with mysterious blessings or loopholes......merely sheer volume of production..Type 1 globally massive production numbers, while Type 4 very limited production, tho better robustness and thus longevity has allowed it to hang around.
'71 Kombi, 1600 dp

';78 Tranzporter 2L

" Fill what's empty, empty what's full, and scratch where it itches."

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by asiab3 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:26 pm

dingo wrote:i dont think it has anything to do with mysterious blessings or loopholes......merely sheer volume of production..Type 1 globally massive production numbers, while Type 4 very limited production, tho better robustness and thus longevity has allowed it to hang around.
But the discussion is about T1 engines built to make more power. Volkswagen never did this, so the production numbers for more powerful T1 engines pale in comparison to production numbers for T4 plants from VW. So there still might be more T4 parts floating around than GOOD T1 parts to make 2.0 T4 equivalent power. One look around Adrian's shop, albeit slightly cluttered, shows that he has plenty of T4 cores to last quite a while, and be picky about which parts he uses.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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