Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

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tommu
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:17 pm

Bleyseng wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:00 pm
Cases were changed in 75 sometime to single control valves as VW was switching to the hydraulic lifters. If you have a 77 case with dual valves they were just using up old stock. Most 75 914's and all 76 914's were single control valve cases as all type 4 engines were assembled in one location. Yes, my 76 914 case is single control valved and racers prefer them due to the better oil pressure to the cam/lifters or a solid rod is installed instead of the spring.
Do you recall if your single relief case has a solid or grooved piston?

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:33 am

No, but I'll pull it out next time I go to my storage as it's a untouched factory engine
Geoff
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:14 pm

Bleyseng wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:33 am
No, but I'll pull it out next time I go to my storage as it's a untouched factory engine
As in never used, from the factory NOS untouched engine?

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Bleyseng » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:22 am

No, it's out of 75,000 mile 914 2.0L that hasn't been opened up by some lame mechanic
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Gnasha » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am

Hydraulic lifters are continually bleeding themselves in operation at every down ramp off the cam lobes. I speculate that if you revert to solid lifters in a hydraulic non-control valve crankcase, the relief valve might spend too much time towards the bottom of its bore, playing "high rpm control valve", diverting oil that should be making a dedicated loop through the oil cooler.
Over the last 9 months I thought I'd researched everything about turning hydraulic into solids, reading above it looks like I've missed something. I have 2 Type 4 2.0 engines stripped, Codes GE and GD. The GE was hydraulic lifters and the GD solid. Unless I've missed something they both have one oil pressure relief at the LHS rear of the engine and no pressure control valve between no. 1 lifter bores. The relief valves are identical.

My Intention was to rebuild the GE case ( came as Hyd.) as a solid lifter, because its the better case and now I'm in two minds.
Should both of these engine be Hydraulic?
Would the engine possibly run too hot at high revs?
Thanks for reading this
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:09 am

I have solid lifters in a GE case with a grooved relief valve. I don't have an oil temperature gauge, but my head temps are ok. Cruising around town at 330/340f, 380-394f on the freeway at 65 and up to 407 on long uphills. The one thing I found is that the engine will not build pressure quickly when first running or after a good oil change. Steve Kent talks about this a lot as a symptom of no control valve. He also mentions that the single relief valve has no groove. It would be great if he would contribute here on this topic.

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:06 pm

Gnasha wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am
hydraulic lifters and the solid both have one oil pressure relief at the LHS rear of the engine and no pressure control valve between no. 1 lifter bores. The relief valves are identical.
Yes they are. The physics at the oil cooler is identical regardless of how the other end of the oil distribution takes care of itself.
Gnasha wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am
Should both of these engine be Hydraulic?
Would the engine possibly run too hot at high revs?
You make your own determination of what lifters to use with whatever matched camshaft (solid or hydraulic profiles) you have.

Engine will run whatever temp it wants to run regardless of control valve/hydraulic lifter relief. The grooved piston in the relief valve is the "turbo cool" feature. If you do your homework as far as viscosity, bearing clearances, and cleanliness, then subsequent hot oil temps suggest that you have issues.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Gnasha » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:34 pm

tommu wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:09 am
I have solid lifters in a GE case with a grooved relief valve. I don't have an oil temperature gauge, but my head temps are ok. Cruising around town at 330/340f, 380-394f on the freeway at 65 and up to 407 on long uphills. The one thing I found is that the engine will not build pressure quickly when first running or after a good oil change. Steve Kent talks about this a lot as a symptom of no control valve. He also mentions that the single relief valve has no groove. It would be great if he would contribute here on this topic.
Thank you for the reply. I've also read Steve’s post on Samba very interesting as is this one. It seems you have little or no issues running solid lifters with one grooved relief valve which is good. I feel more confident in pursuing my build project. Are you going to fit an oil temp gauge? I’m not sure what the solution is if any to prevent delayed oil pressure on start up. Using the car every day would probably resolve the problem.

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Gnasha » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:36 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:06 pm
Gnasha wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am
hydraulic lifters and the solid both have one oil pressure relief at the LHS rear of the engine and no pressure control valve between no. 1 lifter bores. The relief valves are identical.
Yes they are. The physics at the oil cooler is identical regardless of how the other end of the oil distribution takes care of itself.
Gnasha wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am
Should both of these engine be Hydraulic?
Would the engine possibly run too hot at high revs?
You make your own determination of what lifters to use with whatever matched camshaft (solid or hydraulic profiles) you have.

Engine will run whatever temp it wants to run regardless of control valve/hydraulic lifter relief. The grooved piston in the relief valve is the "turbo cool" feature. If you do your homework as far as viscosity, bearing clearances, and cleanliness, then subsequent hot oil temps suggest that you have issues.
Thank you for your valued input, much appreciated

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:46 pm

I don't have any plans yet to add an oil temperature sensor. CHT, AFM and Speedometer give me enough to worry about as it is!

I have only ever had problems with delayed oil pressure when cranking for first run and after a very thorough (drip all night with the taco plate off) oil draining.

The first instance was resolved by pulling the oil pressure sensor after a lot of cranking. I don't really know why - but after re-installing that sensor I the oil warning light went out on the first crank of the starter.

After the oil change I just stopped, waited and turned the starter again. The light went out pretty quickly.

I'd say you have little to worry about - especially if you follow Colin's advice. Concentrate on carefully building that engine.

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