The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:26 am

asiab3 wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:33 am
Overnight? I left my 8mm Type 1 studs for three days at 23 ft*lbs before breaking them evenly and resetting to 18 ft*lbs.

What are the “steps” you’d recommend leaving for a Type 4 without sealing rings? With sealing rings?

Robbie
As a by-the-book nerd, I use sealing rings on the 1700 and 1800 engines as necessary to maintain CR. On the 2000 engines, I delete the sealing rings as per the technical service bulletin, notch the rods, and make sure the piston to cylinder clearance is away from the minimum (I'd hone the cylinder if too tight).

If the engine has sealing rings, the over-torque overnight retorque program is a good idea. Without the sealing rings, it is not as necessary, as there is less "relaxing" going on.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:16 pm

An update:

The engine I built with the help of this thread went 83,992 miles before I removed it. Why did I remove it?
Compression was getting low, 90-95psi all around.
The bearings were rattling under moderate loads, not just full throttle.
The #2e pushrod tube was chafed open by a lower cylinder deflector tin that wiggled loose.
But the heads! Look at that! 83,992 miles, and three laps of the country…

Image

With a spring-loaded pushrod tube, it could be on the road in a day. I hope I don't need it, so for now, it was a nice goodbye to an old friend.

Image

The new power plant is as follows:
Stock 1600 single port, doghouse shroud/cooler
DPR counterweighted crankshaft
Porsche swivel feet
All the doodads, cables, vacuum thingies, and whirlybops from 1969 are accounted for and functioning, except for the 8mm oil galleries/non-offset oil cooler.

Image

Oil/magnetic drain plug were the cleanest I've ever seen for a new engine…

Buddy's 50th birthday is tomorrow, 2/27/2019, so we will do our inaugural valve adjustment, ring break-in, and maniac drive at first light.

See you on the road,
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by tommu » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:17 pm

Sending wishes for smooth power and dry engine bottoms.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:43 pm

A new VW case will allow us to have every sled tin screw perfectly installed, for the first time since owning the car…

Image

And that alone made me feel all warm and fuzzy…

The thing just fires up with a literal flick of the key every time, it's spooky. I wonder what caused my old engine to need 8-10 revolutions for the last few years every time…
approximately transcribed, in Burbank last month, tommu wrote:That took a bit to catch; flooded is it?
Same carburetor, not molested in the slightest; I didn't even change the base gaskets or remove the throttle positioner. Same ignition system, I did nothing but lubricate the points pin, rubbing block, and advance pivot. Same fuel pressure, pump, pushrod, and filter. Sad I had to retire a nice engine to solve that issue! :joker:
tommu wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:17 pm
Sending wishes for smooth power and dry engine bottoms.
Did you know an aftermarket oil sump plate can have its six holes drilled off-center so the sump plate won't fit flush on new VW cases without being in a certain orientation. I had a 33% chance of getting it right the first time, and got lucky. This afternoon I wasn't so fortunate, and ALMOST had to scrap a whole sump of $10/quart VR1, but I had a brand new catch can nearby and salvaged it…

The test drive made me feel a little ridiculous for building an engine with monster torque below 3,000 RPM and a counterweighted crank that hums along at 4,400… But I like the pep and response so far! The drivability smoothed out greatly when I tuned the carb (duh*) and dialed in the throttle positioner.

*I had trimmed the 2,200 RPM cam break-in with the fast idle cam screw, and didn't get it set properly after, thus triggering vacuum advance at idle and making me bottom out the idle speed screw, duh.

A nice birthday break-in drive was had, overall. I am noticing the spirit of "Drive the damn thing" taking over my old break-in mentality of "Careful! Change the oil too much! Don't floor it!"

See you on the road,
Robbie

Image
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:31 pm

The reason I do not know what is going on with your engines is I keep missing your posts. How do I get notified for specific posts? - asked the administrator.

asiab3 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:43 pm
I wonder what caused my old engine to need 8-10 revolutions for the last few years every time…
Same carburetor,
Same ignition system,
Sad I had to retire a nice engine to solve that issue!


A) You had low compression @ 95 psi, yaah? What was the cause?
(Chloe had 135 140 125 130 as its last compression reading before I tore down the engine in March 2017.
The new engine, with who knows what cam from Air-Cooled.Net, and those decoratively-beveled pistons,
has not given me anything above 125, more like 105 105 115 115. And I LIKE it.
B) You had carbon build-up in intake manifold, ports, valves, combustion chambers, yaah?
What is the active ingredient in charcoal canisters that can absorb fuel vapors?
Low compression plus carbon build-up can rob a well-tuned engine of that first blast of fuel when you set the choke.

asiab3 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:43 pm
Did you know an aftermarket oil sump plate can have its six holes drilled off-center?
Oh heck yeah. That is why I don't use them. Does your APOC have a center drain bolt?

asiab3 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:43 pm
The test drive made me feel a little ridiculous for building an engine with monster torque below 3,000 RPM and a counterweighted crank that hums along at 4,400…
See you on the road,
Robbie
Define "monster torque".
If you can certify that you have a stock cam and you start up the hill more cleanly than Bleyseng, we'll talk.
If you, too, have a performance cam, I may have to chow on some crow-on-a-spit. My excuse for NaranjaWesty, if it goes to Maupin this year, heck BobD too, is that they have 100,000 mile cam lobes.

I want to feel the counter-weighted crank. Is it noticeable?
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:31 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:31 pm
A') The reason I do not know what is going on with your engines is I keep missing your posts. How do I get notified

A) You had low compression @ 95 psi, yaah? What was the cause?

B) You had carbon build-up in intake manifold, ports, valves, combustion chambers, yaah?

C) Oh heck yeah. That is why I don't use them. Does your APOC have a center drain bolt?

D) Define "monster torque". [Cam?]

E) I want to feel the counter-weighted crank. Is it noticeable?
A') Any time I log into the site, I click the third item down on the left side menu bar "see new posts." I've had e-mail notifications disabled since I joined…

A) I suspect rings, as it burned a bit of oil after the Colorado Dog Hair Assembly Room. That assembly was supposed to get me home for Thanksgiving, and it did, plus 55k or something like that. Adding a quart every 400-800 didn't really bother me as much as replacing the engine would have. For a few thousand miles, the oil consumption quit completely, and I have no idea why. The engine is still in long block form, minus oil pump, ready to go for a stranded traveler if needed. (We get a lot of those in San Diego.)

B) Not really. Just a little on the pistons and a little on the quench area. Manifold ports, valves, and guides were all clean. The old engine was certainly flooding, as anything other than a floored pedal at hot start would require significantly more cranking before sputtering to life.

C) Yes, it does. I prefer them so I can do a 3k mile oil change and 6k mile strainer clean out. Full disclosure, the oil change interval was stretched to 4k for the last year of the old engine's life out of scheduling necessity.

D) The new engine has more pep than the old engine, and it has it lower in the power band. Imagine going from a tired old engine to a peppy new one. It's kinda like that ;) The old engine had a used Resolit cam with a zero gear and no known history. It had a part number which came up with "stock VW" in a 2016 Google search. The "new" cam is a reground stock VW cam with a -3 gear and NOS lifters. The old engine (with the clear distributor cap at Maupin) had plenty of low-end grunt to get started after the pull-outs on Pike's Peak with the sea-level tune. Yeah, I didn't add a single degree of advance for that 14,000' climb… The new one seems to pull better below 2,800, so I imagine it give an even better run at your hill-start-test.

E) To be honest, it feels only slightly better than the last engine. The biggest noticeable difference is above 4,000 RPM, which I don't plan on cruising at. Freeway onramps are nice when I get to wind it up past 4,200, but the power is pretty much gone at 4,600. I suspect all the glitz, glam, and glory that is preached about those cranks come from people who have not driven many factory and professionally balanced engines. If it extends the lifespan of good #2 bearing clearances, or prevents a boring job in the future, it will have paid for itself @ $125 more than a stock crank from DPR. One thing is for sure, it's straight. Remember summer 2017 with NYCynthia at my family's house where we checked it on v-blocks and I thought the dial micrometer wasn't touching the journals it was so smooth? :pirate:

Break-in has been trouble-free. Valves haven't changed over the last two adjustments, and the exhaust retorques are useless now, at about 150 miles of total driving.
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by tommu » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:30 pm

I had the urge to build another engine as soon as my just built engine seemed to be running well. Do you?

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:46 pm

tommu wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:30 pm
I had the urge to build another engine as soon as my just built engine seemed to be running well. Do you?
Give it a few weeks, I built it last year so I've forgotten the trials and tribulations of Type 1 . Xevin was joking with me today that I need to build a "performance engine." Why? I don't know, but I do have a spare short block in parts here…

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:48 pm

tommu wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:30 pm
I had the urge to build another engine as soon as my just built engine seemed to be running well. Do you?
How about I bring my Len Hoffman heads with me and we do a photo-documented 72-hour upper engine overhaul on a vehicle charged with another ten thousand miles (sixteen to thirty two fabulous shots of your finest coffee should do it)?
That'll take care of "urges" . . .
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:50 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:46 pm
Xevin was joking with me today that I need to build a "performance engine." Why? I don't know,
So he can have company up on Mount Hood's dripping fern highway when his bus could barely move itself because it was so rich and weak (Ronin10/Greta's performance camshaft).
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by tommu » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:22 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:48 pm
tommu wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:30 pm
I had the urge to build another engine as soon as my just built engine seemed to be running well. Do you?
How about I bring my Len Hoffman heads with me and we do a photo-documented 72-hour upper engine overhaul on a vehicle charged with another ten thousand miles (sixteen to thirty two fabulous shots of your finest coffee should do it)?
That'll take care of "urges" . . .
Colin
That seems rather a long time for the top end? But why not! Garage, tripod and coffee at your disposal.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:40 pm

tommu wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:22 pm
That seems rather a long time for the top end? But why not! Garage, tripod and coffee at your disposal.
Aww, you customers. You want it done tomorrow and you want it cheap, well listen here, if my engine is going down, every tin is getting is getting stripped and painted, every tin screw and bracket is getting stripped and painted silver with engine clearcoat, all pistons get a one-hour each decarbonization with a four-step cylinder wall cleaning, engine compartment needs its fifteenth wax and detail job on entire undercarriage harness, so yeah we'll make it 48 hours, FINE.
Colin :colin7:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:44 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:50 pm
asiab3 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:46 pm
Xevin was joking with me today that I need to build a "performance engine." Why? I don't know,
So he can have company up on Mount Hood's dripping fern highway when his bus could barely move itself because it was so rich and weak (Ronin10/Greta's performance camshaft).
Colin
That engine is much better off now. Someone LM1-tuned it, (Colin? Stu? Me?) and I've got it cold starting and idling nicely with dual AAR's wired in parallel. (Double heater elements increases time from open to closed as well, which pairs nicely with the extra airflow and performance cam/valves.)

Colin, are you talking about Naranja's new heads? I'd volunteer as parts washer/GumOut re-stocker if needed (and I'm in California.) 72 hours should more than do it, right? That's how long I spent in Colorado for the camshaft swap and I DIDN'T have the parts…

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by tommu » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:53 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:40 pm
tommu wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:22 pm
That seems rather a long time for the top end? But why not! Garage, tripod and coffee at your disposal.
Aww, you customers. You want it done tomorrow and you want it cheap, well listen here, if my engine is going down, every tin is getting is getting stripped and painted, every tin screw and bracket is getting stripped and painted silver with engine clearcoat, all pistons get a one-hour each decarbonization with a four-step cylinder wall cleaning, engine compartment needs its fifteenth wax and detail job on entire undercarriage harness, so yeah we'll make it 48 hours, FINE.
Colin :colin7:
Ok. Your standards may be a little higher than mind.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:00 am

asiab3 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:44 pm
That engine is much better off now. Someone LM1-tuned it, (Colin? Stu? Me?) and I've got it cold starting and idling nicely with dual AAR's wired in parallel. (Double heater elements increases time from open to closed as well, which pairs nicely with the extra airflow and performance cam/valves.)

Colin, are you talking about Naranja's new heads? I'd volunteer as parts washer/GumOut re-stocker if needed (and I'm in California.) 72 hours should more than do it, right? That's how long I spent in Colorado for the camshaft swap and I DIDN'T have the parts…

Robbie

Wow, dual AARs . . .

Yes, Naranja's new heads if:
a) I don't get the time to do it here in Pensacola
b) I take Naranja out AGAIN instead of the BobD.
Colin
( actually, I'd do the BobD's heads right there in Burbank, heavily photo-documented, if I had a crackerjack team of people who fully appreciated how ridiculously I would attempt to ensure that it looked absolutely factory-still-untouched when done... )
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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