No End Play.

[ruckman101]

Anyone else ever deal with this? Without shims I get a mere .0028 inches of endplay. Subtract .004, my shims should add up to .61 mm. Best I can do is closer to .70 mm. Can the shims be sanded? Ditch one of the three?

Could it be as simple as a metal spacer with four dowel holes punched in it on the end of the crankshaft I don't have?

neal

[Bleyseng]

Yes

[ruckman101]

Doh! That was indeed the ticket.

neal

[Amskeptic]

Doh! That was indeed the ticket.

neal

NOT SO FAST . . . YOU, TOO BLEYSENG, THIS STUFF IS IMPORTANT AND REQUIRES SOLIDLY RESEARCHED ANSWERS.

Neal, please don't give us these mixed up measurements like .028" then .061mm.
Are you mandating us to go convert the numbers so we can help you?
Good luck with that.

We do not use paper gaskets on the end of flywheels that have a groove for a graphite impregnated o-ring. I am pretty sure that your flywheel has a groove for a graphite impregnated o-ring.

If you are absolutely s**t out of luck, a METAL spacer between the crankshaft and the flywheel, but no paper. You know and I know that a huge iron flywheel bolted to a crankshaft with just one lousy nut is very likely to wobble and cause grief even with a perfect installation. You tempt the fates of wanton destruction with the use of a paper gasket to help your endplay issue.

With all of these mixed up numbers, I have no idea what you eventually came up with.
When I read that you wanted to remove one of the shims, I was gonna, I was gonna, anyways,
did I never share with you why you are not allowed to second-guess the factory engineers when it comes to number of shims as mentioned in the factory manuals, the Bentley manual, the Tom Wilson book, did you even read them?????
ColinColdColdCold

[ruckman101]

Micrometer is in mm,
dial gauge is in inches.
Metal gasket.
Three .24 mm (.0094" each) shims gave me no end play at all
.028" (.7 mm) of end play without a gasket.

Metal gaskets in the past didn't quite fit. Had to slightly file outside edges of gasket holes to get it on with no wrinkles or creases. (.61 mm = .0024 inches) was the number I needed from the three shims without the gasket. Was loath to stray from three shims. Seemed it would unduly wear. Folks cited a single shim on Porshe engines to justify fewer than three. Now at .005 inches of end play. And curious, Wilson said final torque to 300 lbs, Bentley 253, and Idiot's 220 lbs. Settled on 287 lbs. End play measurements made at 225 lbs. Yes, did read. Three were mentioned but no dire warnings or go aheads re: fewer than three either way.

Was calling it good to go, but just rechecked and I only have .002 inches (.050 mm) of end play at 287 lbs of torque. And yes, my flywheel has the rubber o-ring.


neal

[Amskeptic]

Metal gaskets in the past didn't quite fit. Had to slightly file outside edges of gasket holes to get it on with no wrinkles or creases. 061 mm (.0024 inches) was the number I needed from the three shims without the gasket.

Gasket? You mean the metal spacer with four dowel holes punched in it, since we DO NOT USE GASKETS with o-ring equipped flywheels? Wrinkles? Creases? Anything like that is so completely not allowed that if there is or even WAS any hint of crease or wrinkle, you have to throw it into the trash.

Was loath to stray from three shims. Seemed it would unduly wear. Folks cited a single shim on Porshe engines to justify fewer than three.

People have been justifying less than three where? Here? theSamba? Shop Talk Forums?
Some P-o-r-s-c-h-e site? We have Volkswagen engines.

Now at .005 inches of end play. And curious, Wilson said final torque to 300 lbs, Bentley 253, and Idiot's 220 lbs. Settled on 287 lbs. End play measurements made at 225 lbs. Yes, did read. Three were mentioned but no dire warnings or go aheads re: fewer than three either way.

Was calling it good to go, but just rechecked and I only have .002 inches (.050 mm) of end play at 287 lbs of torque. And yes, my flywheel has the rubber o-ring.neal

Did you get the .005 reading WITH the oring and main seal installed, and the reading dropped after an overnight sit?
Colin

[ruckman101]

Picky, picky, picky. Whaddaya want, clarity? Accuracy? Sheesh. My apologies. Math has never been my strong suit. Yes, a missing zero on the thousands of an inch measurements.

Initially I put on three shims and had no end play at all. Zero. Even three of the thinnest shims left me at zero.
Striving for .004" of end play, (edit - spec is .0027 to .005" wear limit is .006")

So yes, I then added the "metal spacer with four dowel holes punched in it" to the mix and arrived at .005" of end play with my flywheel that still had the old rubber o-ring on it using three shims. Not even sure what they were. I think two .24 mm and a .30 mm shim.

Then I did the final install, new rubber o-ring on the flywheel, the three now greased shims, the main seal, and the gland nut now torqued to 287 lbs of torque versus the 225 lbs of torque I had been using to set the end play. Was going to call it good but then measured the end play again and had only .002" of end play.


neal

[ruckman101]

And yes, the porsche reference as rationalization for using less than three shims was from a posting from someone on the Shop Talk Forum. It wasn't enough to sway me. I was in the process of trying to sand down three of my thinnest shims before I opted for the metal spacer with four dowel holes punched in it that I have never used in the past, because it never quite fit and mangled when I would try to force it onto the four dowels. This time I filed a touch off the outer edge of the holes in the metal spacer with four dowel holes punched in it until it went on without any distortions.


neal

[Amskeptic]

Picky, picky, picky. Whaddaya want, clarity? Accuracy? Sheesh. My apologies. Math has never been my strong suit. Yes, a missing zero on the thousands of an inch measurements.

Ha! I knew it! Did I not say it? I KNEW it. I just knew. I sez, that can't be right, so I guesses, I guess, I go, "he misplaced a decimal", AND HE MISPLACED A DECIMAL!

Initially I put on three shims and had no end play at all. Zero. After three or four efforts with increasingly slimmer shims, and still no end play, I measured with no shims and got .0028 inches of end play. Even three of the thinnest shims left me at zero. Striving for .0004 inches of end play, under the spec of .0005 to .0007 inches meant my three shims should total .061 mm. .024 mm is the thinnest shim available.

So yes, I then added the "metal spacer with four dowel holes punched in it" to the mix and arrived at .0005 inches of end play with my flywheel that still had the old rubber o-ring on it using three shims. Not even sure what they were. I think two .024 mm and a .030 mm shim.

Then I did the final install, new rubber o-ring on the flywheel, the three now greased shims, the main seal, and the gland nut now torqued to 287 lbs of torque versus the 225 lbs of torque I had been using to set the end play. Was going to call it good but then measured the end play again and had only .0002 inches of end play.


neal

Now you have too many 0s all across your post. Neal? Neal. Nealnealneal.
There is a terrifying reality here that only you can surmount.
If you KNOW that you EXPERIENCED a CERTIFIABLE end play of .005 (five thousandths) of an inch with the old o-ring with the SAME shims/spacer CURRENTLY installed NO FOOLING, you are probably OK. The new rubber o-ring and new front seal can often make you doubt yourself.
HOWEVER
If your .005" was achieved at a lower gland nut torque (225?) than your present 287, then we cannot assume that it will be OK, particularly if the flywheel spacer did have a "crease".

Are you using a dial indicator? If so, you cannot pry the crankshaft back and forth on the same side as the indicator. You must pry and push on the opposite side of the engine, ie the pulley side if the indicator is at the flywheel.

If you are using some sort of John Muir "all thread" contraption, let me know.
This shore is fun, ain't it?
Colin

[ruckman101]

Dial indicator, at the flywheel, pushing pulling at the flywheel at 225 lbs of torque. 25 lbs of torque more than the Wilson book suggested. Bentley doesn't specify, so the assumption would be at full torque of 257 lbs. Idiot's guide says 220 lbs of torque. No crease on the spacer. Carefully filed the outside of the spacer holes until it slid on. Why the pulley side?

neal

[ruckman101]

I can't win for losing.

neal

[Amskeptic]

Dial indicator, at the flywheel, pushing pulling at the flywheel at 225 lbs of torque. 25 lbs of torque more than the Wilson book suggested. Bentley doesn't specify, so the assumption would be at full torque of 257 lbs. Idiot's guide says 220 lbs of torque. No crease on the spacer. Carefully filed the outside of the spacer holes until it slid on. Why the pulley side?

neal

Flywheels are ridiculously bendable with a screwdriver, you can't get a good reading. Try bunting the pulley forwards toward the flywheel right at the big bolt in the center, now zero the indicator, then *gently* pry the pulley backwards. Repeat lots of times.
Colin

[ruckman101]

I'm loath to back-track. How dire are the consequences of not enough end play? I don't think I could pull the main seal without destruction. It went in reluctantly.

neal

[Amskeptic]

I'm loath to back-track. How dire are the consequences of not enough end play? I don't think I could pull the main seal without destruction. It went in reluctantly.

neal

You don't have to backtrack. You need to get an accurate reading. If the flywheel is still accessible, and the pulley is too, get out there and measure a good ten times if necessary. Moving the crankshaft in the bearings is not that big an effort, so don't go mangling the pulley in your pry efforts, just make sure you are doing everything necessary to get the crankshaft forward, "0", pull back and read the dial indicator.
Gives us a number here.

( deleted two prior posts because it is dire . . . )
If you do not have enough end play, honest to God, you seize the damn engine within 15 minutes, with a potential ripped up #1 main bearing dowel destroying the #1 main saddle and thus, the crankcase. It presents its symptoms subtly, it just slows down and refuses to idle. This is one of those moments where you want to be thorough. Take your hits for inattention or even simple ignorance, now is the time to make sure.

Since you do not want to wreck your $8.00 main seal, measure carefully several times, and get a witness out there to help you keep it honest. If you must go in and replace the main seal again, skip two coffees at Starbucks and cut back on smoking for a week. Like, big deal.
ColinDoYaHATEMeYet???

[ruckman101]

Yep, sounds dire. Yet you prefer .004 thousands of an inch, rather than the .005 to .007 Bentley calls for. But .002 or even a touch less is out of the ball park for such a narrow spec.

Ever hopeful I was, so backtrack I will do. Could be much worse. I could be dead on the side of the road not quite at Nehalem.





So it goes. I guess I can paint my mustache bar. And thanks.


neal