Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

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SlowLane
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by SlowLane » Sat May 25, 2013 1:29 pm

Amskeptic wrote:The Type 1 engines have offset wristpins to avoid piston slap, they must be installed with the marks facing up.
Yes, that was what I recalled from years past. But now I'm wondering if that makes sense. With the marks all facing up, the offset would be on one side of the wrist pin centerline for the pistons on one side, but on the opposite side of the wrist pin for the other pair of pistons. Seems to me that you would want one or the other to fix the piston-slap problem.
But maybe I'm misunderstanding what "offset" means here.
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Gypsie
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by Gypsie » Sat May 25, 2013 7:07 pm

Colin's description of setting the offset for the type1 is as you are thinking Slowlane, "ie have the rod for #3 point to where #3 would be, then #1 to where #1 would be etc., the rods must have the offset in the same direction up or down in this positining. I'm not surewhich way but I would rely Bentley or Wilson were I dealing with it on the bench...).

Sounds like type4 makse no nevermind 'ceptin having the same numbers on the same side when connected to the crank.

Good to know.



(Funny how "Bentley or Wilson" sounds like butlers or footmen...Too much Downton Abbey, I guess.)
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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Kubelwagen
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by Kubelwagen » Mon May 27, 2013 9:03 pm

So, what would you order here, or would you just order someplace else:

http://aapistons.com/shop/vw-piston-and ... orsche+914
Patience the 81 Adventurewagen

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Westy78
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by Westy78 » Mon May 27, 2013 10:31 pm

http://www.busdepot.com/029198075

Not sure of the quality of AA pistons.
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dtrumbo
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by dtrumbo » Tue May 28, 2013 6:44 am

I got mine here.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Piston-Cyl ... 400t4e.htm

Mine were Mahles, but Email John C. and ask what brand he is currently selling.
- Dick

1970 Transporter. 2015cc, dual Weber IDF 40's
1978 Riviera Camper. Bone stock GE 2.0L F.I.
1979 Super Beetle convertible.

... as it turns out, it was the coil!

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Gypsie
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by Gypsie » Tue May 28, 2013 8:51 am

I got my mahle set from Halsey.

I want to throw this out there:

I think the plan is to install the CA donor engine in the "Federal" bus and run the engine as a federal (ie use the AFM, Dizzy, coil, harness, and ECM from a Federal engine) for the temporary engine swap.

Should we consider pulling the 02 sensor from the Cali engine and plugging the hole so it isn't damaged during the several months it will not be hooked up?

A replacement is a few bucks (though there is no telling what the current one is doing anyway): http://www.busdepot.com/11964.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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Kubelwagen
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by Kubelwagen » Tue May 28, 2013 9:03 am

I was planning for Halsey P &C too, but AA had a proponent at the Lab last night so I wanted to spark some discussion. My message was probably made hazy by the hour.
Patience the 81 Adventurewagen

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SlowLane
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by SlowLane » Tue May 28, 2013 11:47 pm

Gypsie wrote: I think the plan is to install the CA donor engine in the "Federal" bus and run the engine as a federal (ie use the AFM, Dizzy, coil, harness, and ECM from a Federal engine) for the temporary engine swap.

Should we consider pulling the 02 sensor from the Cali engine and plugging the hole so it isn't damaged during the several months it will not be hooked up?

A replacement is a few bucks (though there is no telling what the current one is doing anyway): http://www.busdepot.com/11964.
If you're planning to use the CA exhaust system with the Federal FI system, I'd be more worried about causing damage to the catalytic converter than the O2 sensor. The cat is why the O2 sensor is there in the first place. So I'd recommend running with the Federal exhaust system as well (better heat than using the CA heater boxes, as well).

If you decide to stick with the CA exhaust, the O2 bung can be plugged with a 18x1.5 mm plug. Turns out a type 1 oil pressure relief valve plug works perfectly for that. :wink:
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by Gypsie » Wed May 29, 2013 10:45 am

SlowLane wrote: If you're planning to use the CA exhaust system with the Federal FI system, I'd be more worried about causing damage to the catalytic converter than the O2 sensor. The cat is why the O2 sensor is there in the first place. So I'd recommend running with the Federal exhaust system as well (better heat than using the CA heater boxes, as well).
Just so I understand let me hypothesize for a moment:

The O2 sensor tells the ECM if there is too much or too little fuel which in turn, along with the information gathered from the afm, tells the injectors to give more or less fuel.
The Cat, through the affect of exhaust gasses passing through the material, burns off residual excess fuel. If set up properly using the Federal controls (coil, afm, ecu, dizzy, etc and mix dialed in to a close proximity to 13-14.7 on the Lambda scale, or even using the Colin method of AFM adjustment) the Cat will do it's task without the feedback offered by the O2.

I think damage to the cat is avoidable if we keep these factors in mind and set the timing and mix accordingly.

I think. ???

The condition of the Cat is unknown anyway so we will set to the best of our abilities.

The ultimate goal is minimum disassembly of the Cali engine components (ie exhaust system, heads etc.) to be installed and used for a short period of time while the Federal engine is rebuilt. After completion, the Cali engine will be worked and reinstalled into the Cali donor rig.
SlowLane wrote: If you decide to stick with the CA exhaust, the O2 bung can be plugged with a 18x1.5 mm plug. Turns out a type 1 oil pressure relief valve plug works perfectly for that. :wink:
Eggcellent.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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airkooledchris
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by airkooledchris » Wed May 29, 2013 10:52 am

if the Federal setup used a CAT as well, but didn't have an O2 sensor, then I wouldn't worry too much about hurting the CAT.


I am going to try and run all of the CA setup on mine, but with federal heater boxes and 72-74 style exhaust. Im thinking of just putting the CAT right between the extractor and the muffler. Since the CAT has an O2 test port on it, I can still use the stock O2 sensor. (or even swap the sensor for one with the two wires coming out of it, one for the CA computer and one for an LM-2.)
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SlowLane
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by SlowLane » Thu May 30, 2013 7:48 am

Gypsie wrote: Just so I understand let me hypothesize for a moment:

The O2 sensor tells the ECM if there is too much or too little fuel which in turn, along with the information gathered from the afm, tells the injectors to give more or less fuel.
The Cat, through the affect of exhaust gasses passing through the material, burns off residual excess fuel. If set up properly using the Federal controls (coil, afm, ecu, dizzy, etc and mix dialed in to a close proximity to 13-14.7 on the Lambda scale, or even using the Colin method of AFM adjustment) the Cat will do it's task without the feedback offered by the O2.
Kinda-sorta. What is often lost in discussions of cats is that back in 1981, there were two kinds of cats commonly used: oxidation-only (aka. "2-way"), and the new-fangled oxidation-reduction (or "3-way") cats. 2-way cats, which didn't require O2 sensors (but which did need oxygen-rich, engine-destroying lean mixures) were installed on Federal-spec Vanagons. 3-way cats, which require a "lambda-feedback loop" using an O2 sensor, were installed on CA-spec Vanagons. The Vanagon user's manual, if you're fortunate enough to have one, explains this on page 78.

So even with setting the AFR to as close to 14.7 as you can, the Federal system won't be able to provide the lean-rich-lean-rich cycle that the 3-way cat needs to do its job effectively. Having said that, I'm pretty much running the same sort of setup on my van, simply because my Canadian-spec van didn't come with a cat, I needed to install a cat to import it, and 2-way cats just aren't sold anymore, so I'm stuck with a 3-way cat on a Federal model. So far, the cat hasn't melted down, but I don't know if it's actually doing any good.

If you want further reading on catalytic converters, I found this pretty good article from a Google search. It's technical enough, but doesn't require a Master's degree in chemistry: http://www.bearriverconverters.com/data/CatOpp.pdf
Gypsie wrote:The condition of the Cat is unknown anyway so we will set to the best of our abilities.

The ultimate goal is minimum disassembly of the Cali engine components (ie exhaust system, heads etc.) to be installed and used for a short period of time while the Federal engine is rebuilt. After completion, the Cali engine will be worked and reinstalled into the Cali donor rig.
I follow, but things usually take longer than you expect, and that applies in spades to engine rebuilds. You may find that the "short period of time" stretches out to several months. But the exhaust parts are accessible with the engine in the car, so if you all decide to swap the components at some point, it won't require dropping the engine.

Another advantage of using the Federal exhaust is that you have the option of replacing the cat with the straight pipe that came standard on Canadian models (if you can get away with it in your jurisdiction). It's VW part number 021-251-541. CIP sells it for $50 http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... 21-251-541
aircooledchris wrote:if the Federal setup used a CAT as well, but didn't have an O2 sensor, then I wouldn't worry too much about hurting the CAT.
See discussion above on 2-way vs. 3-way cats.
aircooledchris wrote:I am going to try and run all of the CA setup on mine, but with federal heater boxes and 72-74 style exhaust. Im thinking of just putting the CAT right between the extractor and the muffler. Since the CAT has an O2 test port on it, I can still use the stock O2 sensor. (or even swap the sensor for one with the two wires coming out of it, one for the CA computer and one for an LM-2.)
I'm a bit confused about this: the 72-74 exhaust was a big muffler that bolted directly to the heat exchangers. No extractor involved, and no real place where you can stick a cat. (I'm assuming we're using "extractor" in the commonly-used sense to describe an aftermarket twisty-tube "performance" style exhaust that thas been flogged to us VW enthusiasts since the 1970's). So if you're considering bolting a cat onto the output of an extractor, then you may find that the exhaust gases will have cooled off too much by the time they get to the cat for it to do any good.

Same goes for the stock, unheated O2 sensor: it needs to be hot to work. Using a wide-band with an LC-1 would take care of the sensor heating issue, but wouldn't do anything for making sure the gases are hot enough for the cat. I suspect I'm running into the same issue with my 3-way cat in the stock Federal location. I have an EGR probe stuck in my exhaust just after the U-bend, and even though I've only taken it for short drives around the nieghborhood, the temperatures I'm seeing aren't very encouraging.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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Kubelwagen
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by Kubelwagen » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:24 pm

Going to try and get the engine in this weekend. Anybody got some free time?

Mike
Patience the 81 Adventurewagen

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airkooledchris
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by airkooledchris » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:24 pm

SlowLane wrote: I'm a bit confused about this: the 72-74 exhaust was a big muffler that bolted directly to the heat exchangers. No extractor involved, and no real place where you can stick a cat. (I'm assuming we're using "extractor" in the commonly-used sense to describe an aftermarket twisty-tube "performance" style exhaust that thas been flogged to us VW enthusiasts since the 1970's). So if you're considering bolting a cat onto the output of an extractor, then you may find that the exhaust gases will have cooled off too much by the time they get to the cat for it to do any good.

Same goes for the stock, unheated O2 sensor: it needs to be hot to work. Using a wide-band with an LC-1 would take care of the sensor heating issue, but wouldn't do anything for making sure the gases are hot enough for the cat. I suspect I'm running into the same issue with my 3-way cat in the stock Federal location. I have an EGR probe stuck in my exhaust just after the U-bend, and even though I've only taken it for short drives around the nieghborhood, the temperatures I'm seeing aren't very encouraging.

On the stock CA system, the passenger side exhaust exits the head, runs through the heater box, then through a crossover pipe towards the drives side where it combines/collects with the exhaust coming from the driver side head, then through the cat.

Im picturing the exhaust now going through the heater box, through the collector (combiner?) and then hitting the CAT. I think compared to the stock CA system the drivers side gasses will get there slower than before and the passenger side should be there faster, based on the amount of tubing they had to pass through pre-CAT before compared to now.

The reality is that I just need to get it to smog once and im done. Even if it's a fugly looking setup, it'll be gone once I get my papers.
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by 72Hardtop » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:37 am

Go with the AA P/C set. They've come a long way in terms of their quality since the first generation sets. I'm running 96mm biral AA's and they are holding very well. They checked out perfect out of the box as far as ring end gap and weight as well.
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tristessa
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Re: Kubelwagen's engine meltdown

Post by tristessa » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:34 am

Official updates?

I popped by on the way home last night and gave a bit of help before I had to take off. At that point, Kubel and Gypsie were getting ready to stab the motor in, and Mike Boell was on his way...
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