QS Defy

[Hippie]

I think Colin's experienced odometer has shown--to me anyway--that the stock ACVW engines don't have enough cam to lifter pressure to require the ZDDP (or ZDP, aka "zinc" or "phosphorous") additive levels that typical off-the-shelf motor oil used to contain before late 2004 to prevent premature cam lobe and/or lifter wear--at least after new engine break-in period.

As many know, they reduced the the content of this additive back then starting with most API SM designated motor oils, from a typical level of about 1200 parts per million to a typical level of about 800 ppm to enhance catalytic convertor life.

Newer engine designs in particular normally have rollers on the valve lifters and don't need as much of this extreme pressure metal to metal anti-wear additive, and in addition, have largely substituted other changes in motor oil formulation to compensate for this. Still, there are some ACVW engine owner's who prefer the older levels of ZDDP, and use certain racing oils or zinc additive boosters in their motor oil.

Quaker State has addressed this isssue recently with their Defy branded sythetic blend motor oil with "boosted" levels of the additive in question. It is supposedly not for new car engines because it has not been tested for API approval for the latest warranty requirements, but for those who prefer the older "zinc" level formulations, I want to make you aware that this type of oil is now available off-the-shelf at Walmarts for about $15 per 5 quart jug.

Data sheet:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_ ... 220840.pdf

(I have bought some for our Jeep Wrangler as it's 4.0 liter straight-six uses flat (not-roller) lifters like the old VW, and a friend of mine has had a cam lobe wear flat on his old Jeep pickup--which may or may not be associated with use of newer API SM and SN motor oils.)

cheers,
Rob

[Bleyseng]

Hmmm, you weren't around when Jake did his Spin a tron testing of cams, lifters, oils etc.

[airkooledchris]

Hmmm, you weren't around when Jake did his Spin a tron testing of cams, lifters, oils etc.

fill us in!

is that to say that yes we absolutely need the zinc, or that if you want the zinc you still can't trust even this Quaker State oil to provide it?

$15.57 from Wal-Mart beats the hell out of buying $50 worth of Gibbs Racing oil

[Hippie]

I second aircooledchris' questions here. If I recall, Mr. Raby was unhappy with some of the response he got from publishing his test results and pulled them before I was aware of them.
Did Jake test stock engines and find excessive wear? In my opinion, there are too many accumulated miles by too many people on the stock ACVW engines using regular oil in the last eight years to cause me to feel concerned about lowered ZDDP levels. Break-in, especially with an aftermarket or aggresive cam may be another story. There used to be a video out there on the web where a Valvoline representative noted something to the effect that SM oil was fine for flat tappets in all but fairly extreme cases and during initial break-in, where they recommended a break-in additive be used temporarily.

Anyway, I wanted to make people aware of this relatively new product. Apparently the 10W-40 (if you can find it) has about 1200 ppm, and the others about 1000 ppm. There is no 20W-50 Defy listed at this time.

[Amskeptic]

I second aircooledchris' questions here. If I recall, Mr. Raby was unhappy with some of the response he got from publishing his test results and pulled them before I was aware of them.
Did Jake test stock engines and find excessive wear? In my opinion, there are too many accumulated miles by too many people on the stock ACVW engines using regular oil in the last eight years to cause me to feel concerned about lowered ZDDP levels. Break-in, especially with an aftermarket or aggresive cam may be another story. There used to be a video out there on the web where a Valvoline representative noted something to the effect that SM oil was fine for flat tappets in all but fairly extreme cases and during initial break-in, where they recommended a break-in additive be used temporarily.

Anyway, I wanted to make people aware of this relatively new product. Apparently the 10W-40 (if you can find it) has about 1200 ppm, and the others about 1000 ppm. There is no 20W-50 Defy listed at this time.

I'll send a postcard when my valve clearances start opening up due to lifter/cam wear. So far, this little 1600 that has spun several million revolutions under my watch has held its dimensions nicely.
My Road Warrior Type 4 crankshaft gave me an excellent 419,000 miles with no appreciable wear, the camshaft was well into the 200,000 miles with WalMart available Castrol GTX.
Colin
(I am hyper-vigilant to any reports of brands that I have used going cheep-out craptastic. That includes Mercedes, Duplicolor, Porsche, Purolator, Volkswagen, Calvin Klein, Bic, Dell, Lexus, all have sold their souls under my watch . . . if Castrol goes to crap, let me know)

[Bleyseng]

He did the testing using a type 4 block and cams/lifter from different manufacturers is Webcam, VW etc. A motor of some type spun the engine at a certain speed so he could calc the rpms as mileage. This was when cams and lifters were failing in brand or rebuilt new engines all over the place. Some was caused by bad billets and mostly was caused by the oil manufacturers deleting the ZDDP.
Colin's experience is his experience so I don't discount it but so many other engine guys (with tons of pics and degrees) have gone over this. I personally know 2 guys that had cam/lifter failures. Me, I'll play it safe and use a oil with the ol skool ZDDP like it had in the 60's and 70's.

[airkooledchris]

I'll play it safe and use a oil with the ol skool ZDDP like it had in the 60's and 70's.

do you think there's any benefit to buying $40 worth of Gibbs racing oil ever 3k miles, or is this QS Defy with the ZDDP good enough for you?

just wondering if there's any reason to think that QuakerState's ZDDP would be any different from anyone else.

[Bleyseng]

what are the ZDDP levels? It should be listed somewhere....I don't use Gibbs racing oil except in the 914 which I sometimes race, AX, beat the heck out of it.

[Amskeptic]

He did the testing using a type 4 block and cams/lifter from different manufacturers is Webcam, VW etc.vThis was when cams and lifters were failing in brand or rebuilt new engines all over the place. Some was caused by bad billets and mostly was caused by the oil manufacturers deleting the ZDDP.
Colin's experience is his experience so I don't discount it but so many other engine guys (with tons of pics and degrees) have gone over this. I personally know 2 guys that had cam/lifter failures. Me, I'll play it safe and use a oil with the ol skool ZDDP like it had in the 60's and 70's.

"some was caused by bad billets"
"mostly was caused by - deleting ZDDP".
How did you determine that "some" and that "mostly". Did manufacturers delete ZDDP or did they merely reduce ZDDP content?

You know two guys who had cam/lifter failures.
Do we have any cam/lifter failure rebuilds on this forum?

I have only a few pounds of pictures and a degree that might weigh a few ounces at most, but they have nothing to do with an engine's reality.

There are logic chains that cannot be driven backwards. I am one of them.

IF a cam/lifter failure occurs with non-enhanced engine oil
AND a cam lifter failure does NOT occur with non-enhanced engine oil,
THEN there is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that non-enhanced oil is a cause of failure.

HOWEVER,
there are many subtle variables that can cause cam/lifter failure that are overlooked by the very people who cast about and blame the damn oil because they are . . . confused and angry.

AND,
if there is one thing I will emphasize repeatedly here, it is that the quality of replacement parts have gone to hell in a handbasket, but the blowhard blather about how extra-quality wonderful they are is still spewing unabatedly.

I will not be using any sooper-dooper by-the-way-BraddPennIsOutJoeGibbsIsIn special special special oil with my factory original camshaft and OEM lifters, waiting in a box as I write, in my next Type 4 engine rebuild.

In conclusion, I do not subscribe to oil being the "mostly cause" of lifter/cam failure. I look forward to updating you in the next twenty years or so should I experience my very first confused and angry cam/lifter failure.

Here are my crap Febi Bus Depot lifters at 67,000 miles that I slapped on a VW camshaft two years prior with nothing more than a globablob of Valvoline Durablend Semi-Synthetic molybdenum disulfide grease.



I slapped them back into the engine in April of 2008 in Austin Texas, and got another 15,000 miles before the Road Warrior was killed. The engine built immediate oil pressure and ran smoothly.
I wonder if some of these failures, other than incorrect hardness/surface treatment, are from painful break-in starts where oil pressure was hard to come by and the valve springs were stompass heavy duty and the slam-into-a-wall lift profiles and the dual big-ass carb set-ups that backfire and spit at first start, were all contributing to the hell we subject these engines to in the name of "performance"?
ColinTheCaffenatedCoffee'sGreatHere

[Bleyseng]

As I recall, the supplier of cam billets changed to material from India which made for problems. Some folks got shitty cams and lifters made of this material which was then corrected.
At the same time oil companies changed the makeup of the oils due to CATS really not liking Zinc so many folks had cam/lifters failures.
A scientific study was done about the problem in VW's and came up with the conclusion that the failures was "mostly" caused by the deleting of the Zinc (ZDDP). These were not HiPo type 4's that were burning up but mostly stock rebuilds although a few were type 4 big engines.

Check out LN Engineering's site as they should have it on there.

I go with the smart guys who realized our old vw's needed ZDDP along with all the old V8's with flat lifters as they had the same problems with wiped cams or lifters in rebuilt motors.

[Hippie]

I reitterate, I don't think they need it, but for those who prefer it--maybe for peace of mind or whatever--it's now on the shelves and fairly cheap. Enjoy.

@aircooledchris: My understanding is about 1200 ppm for 10W-40 and 1000 for the other weights.
The used oil analysis I personally saw for Defy 10W-30 was prettyt much right at 1000.

[Amskeptic]

I reitterate, I don't think they need it, but for those who prefer it--maybe for peace of mind or whatever--it's now on the shelves and fairly cheap. Enjoy.

@aircooledchris: My understanding is about 1200 ppm for 10W-40 and 1000 for the other weights.
The used oil analysis I personally saw for Defy 10W-30 was prettyt much right at 1000.

Warning: Personal Anecdotal Evidence Only To Follow

I have never wiped a cam or a lifter and I do not know anyone on this forum who has rebuilt an engine that wiped its cam or lifters. Please, if you have had personal experience with such a failure, post it here.
Colin

[Hippie]

I have never wiped a cam or a lifter and I do not know anyone on this forum who has rebuilt an engine that wiped its cam or lifters. Please, if you have had personal experience with such a failure, post it here.
Colin

I would think the forums would be full of these reports by now.
The lowered zinc oils hit the shelves in November 2004, and probably the large majority ACVW owners have used it, as is, ever since.

[Bleyseng]

I did hit the forums as back then Shoptalk forums is where it was posted about and the 914club.com