Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness

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vwlover77
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Location: North Canton, Ohio
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Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness

Post by vwlover77 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:54 am

For the past two days, I started up the Bus and the lifters were nice and quiet. Drove it on a few trips from 10 to 30 minutes long, and a lifter on the driver's side was ticking at the end. Not as loud as one that is fully collapsed, but noisier than normal. What the heck is going on? Oil level is full, and the 20W50 Castrol has around 2000 miles on it. Any insights?
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Mr Blotto
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness

Post by Mr Blotto » Wed May 15, 2019 12:12 pm

vwlover77 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:54 am
For the past two days, I started up the Bus and the lifters were nice and quiet. Drove it on a few trips from 10 to 30 minutes long, and a lifter on the driver's side was ticking at the end. Not as loud as one that is fully collapsed, but noisier than normal. What the heck is going on? Oil level is full, and the 20W50 Castrol has around 2000 miles on it. Any insights?
Did you pop the valve cover to see that all was well / pushrods were seated? When is the last time you adjusted/set the valves? Could you have run it super hot and not known it? Is the fan clear, foam gasket in place and cooling flaps in order?

I forget (been away for a while) - does your rebuild have solid or hydraulic lifters?
1978 Sage Green Westy - 2.0 FI - SOLD WITH 109887 miles :-(

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness

Post by vwlover77 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:02 am

All is well under the valve cover. Pushrods are well seated. The hydraulic lifters were last set a few thousand miles ago. No overheating events, all cooling system hardware and "software" (foam seal) present and working properly, including the thermostat.

Here is the happy sound of the lukewarm engine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbBYCBjOEro

Here is the noisy lifter sound after the engine is fully warmed up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RlQOUJghGI

I do plan to check the valve adjustment ASAP.
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness

Post by Amskeptic » Thu May 16, 2019 7:25 am

vwlover77 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:02 am
All is well under the valve cover. Pushrods are well seated. The hydraulic lifters were last set a few thousand miles ago. No overheating events, all cooling system hardware and "software" (foam seal) present and working properly, including the thermostat.

Here is the happy sound of the lukewarm engine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbBYCBjOEro

Here is the noisy lifter sound after the engine is fully warmed up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RlQOUJghGI

I do plan to check the check the valve adjustment ASAP.

A) You have a shallow lifter adjustment. When engine warms up, valve train expands to "0" meaning that the circlip on the offending lifter is holding the lifter from expanding any further. To test: warm up engine to clicky temp. Quickly rotate engine to #3 TDC. Remove valve cover, test for clearance at either valve. If no, get to #4 quickly. Any clearance? Note which one and adjust cold all valves to 2 turns if you are at 1 1/2 or 1 1/2 if all are at 2. (this problem comes most usually from a mis-count on valve adjustment day)

B) You have a lifter that is bleeding badly and is unable to remain pumped up. Same test as above but if you chance across the clearance click, test for sponginess at rocker by pulling out at top and pushing in at pushrod. Spongy?
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness

Post by vwlover77 » Fri May 17, 2019 4:59 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:25 am
A) You have a shallow lifter adjustment.
Trying to think this through, scenario A doesn't make sense to me. The pushrod and valve stem increase in length as they get hot, correct? So if the lifter adjustment is shallow, the situation would improve as things get hot because the longer pushrod and valve stem would cause the lifter piston to re-center itself away from the circlip and toward the camshaft. I'd have noisy clearance with a cold engine and quiet operation when hot. Right?

Also, if I miscounted on valve adjustment day, wouldn't I have had this problem since then? This just started a couple of days ago.

I think it's got to be scenario B of a badly bleeding lifter, which would also explain why I often get a full lifter bleed-down on the next engine start after a highway run. Full to the point that it takes 15 minutes of driving to pump it back up.

I will be investigating things further this weekend.
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness

Post by vwlover77 » Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Well, I'm not sure exactly what happened, but adjustment seemed to fix it. I could not find either clearance or sponginess on any #3 or #4 valve, so I went ahead and adjusted them. My notes from the last adjustment around 25K miles ago indicated that I had set them to 1 3/4 turns. No change on any except the #3 exhaust valve. Its adjustment screw lost contact with the valve stem after backing it out only one turn. Confession: This valve stem has a lash cap on it, and I had a similar problem shortly after I installed it...... https://itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewto ... 6&p=201029

Today, I set them all to 2 turns. After a nice drive to get everything got good and hot, including a highway run, it sounds like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsabc0Pb22w

Much happier!!!!
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness

Post by Amskeptic » Fri May 17, 2019 8:31 pm

vwlover77 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm
Well, I'm not sure exactly what happened, but adjustment seemed to fix it. I could not find either clearance or sponginess on any #3 or #4 valve, so I went ahead and adjusted them. My notes from the last adjustment around 25K miles ago indicated that I had set them to 1 3/4 turns. No change on any except the #3 exhaust valve. Its adjustment screw lost contact with the valve stem after backing it out only one turn. Confession: This valve stem has a lash cap on it, and I had a similar problem shortly after I installed it...... https://itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewto ... 6&p=201029

Today, I set them all to 2 turns. After a nice drive to get everything got good and hot, including a highway run, it sounds like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsabc0Pb22w

Much happier!!!!

I offer lame suppositions freely in the hopes that people will disdain them first and go straight to the more likely scenario. Sometimes we come back to the crazy one and find that it was correct, to wit, "it seems like your intake ports are blocked ..." Yeah, true story. Someone made a new gasket and didn't poke holes.
Glad it is all behaving!
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 108,000 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,885 miles

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vwlover77
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Re: Hydraulic Lifter Weirdness

Post by vwlover77 » Sat May 18, 2019 6:20 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:31 pm
I offer lame suppositions freely in the hopes that people will disdain them first and go straight to the more likely scenario. Sometimes we come back to the crazy one and find that it was correct, to wit, "it seems like your intake ports are blocked ..." Yeah, true story. Someone made a new gasket and didn't poke holes.
Glad it is all behaving!
I remember that one! Thank you and safe travels! :cheers:
Don

---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick

"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen

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