Cylinder head hardware

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jalabert
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Cylinder head hardware

Post by jalabert » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:45 pm

Hello, long time since I logged in - poke my head in occasionally, mind.

Discovered a couple of little weeps under the engine and around the drive flanges over the weekend - nothing too awful, but enough to put an engine and gearbox out service on the winter's agenda.

Engine is a 1.7 with about 75k miles on it (factory VW, replaced in '86). I'm thinking that now's the time for the heads to be shown a bit of love - I've found a machine shop in NZ which has got recommended to me as having a good history with A/C stuff. 3 angle valve job, new valves, guides and springs. Valve adjustments have hardly ever shifted - I don't want to do anything with the seats unless I really, really have to.

Given that we're such a small country where VWs are fast becoming a rarity, and type 4 engines are even rarer, I'm thinking that I'll be better off (if not inevitably) sourcing the very best hardware I can ahead of time. I can see stainless valves and springs on aircooled.net - any opinions, good or bad?

Also, how about guides - is that somewhere where I have to wait and see what the requirement is first - in case they need to be fitted oversize?

Yes, I know that if I was in the states the answer would be to send these to Adrian, etc. But I'm not, so I'm trying to make the best of what's available... :study:

Any other guidance, gratefully received...

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tommu
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by tommu » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:47 pm

If the valves aren't moving what's the issue? Do you think you're losing compression from the heads?

Of course.. the very best answer is HAM heads. Maybe you could get another year or so out of those heads while you save! Are new AMC heads available down there?

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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by jalabert » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:22 am

I'm wanting to keep these as good as possible as long as possible. The 1.7 head seems to have a reputation as being the most bombproof of the factory heads, so I'm aiming for roadwarrior levels of mileage out of 'em.

I'm sure that at the minimum the springs are a little tired by now, and while I'm there, etc...the other possibility that crossed my mind was just replacing the exhaust valves and springs, and lapping the replacement to the head rather than machining...?

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Amskeptic
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:25 pm

jalabert wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:22 am
I'm wanting to keep these as good as possible as long as possible. The 1.7 head seems to have a reputation as being the most bombproof of the factory heads, so I'm aiming for roadwarrior levels of mileage out of 'em.

I'm sure that at the minimum the springs are a little tired by now, and while I'm there, etc...the other possibility that crossed my mind was just replacing the exhaust valves and springs, and lapping the replacement to the head rather than machining...?

Please answer the following questions:

a) You say that the valve adjustment settings have been stable, yes? Please count the number of threads showing above each lock nut and list them in this order in your reply: 1E 1-I 2-I 2E ........... 3E 3-I 4-I 4E

b) have you experienced any intermittent smokey WTF?? starts?

c) do you see any gross black carbon'y crap in the rocker boxes around any specific valves?

d) can you observe any blow-by oil carbon build up directly above the pushrod tubes, i.e.:
(note that my head here is upside down)

Image


If you pass the test, consider leaving your heads alone for the next 25,000 miles or so.
Colin

preview if your heads fail
(p.s. phosphor-bronze guides ( ODs accurately measured against the IDs of the guide bores for correct (!!) interference at the correct temperature differentials upon correct lubricated installation!

(p.s. track down Manley stainless steel valves and ensure that the keepers are beautifully slippery not bound)

(original springs are generally superior to the more brittle replacements, and NO you do not want "performance high pressure springs" because our camshafts work hard enough at the 170-180# pressure at 29mm compressed value)

(demand deadnuts accurate contact widths! 2mm intakes, 2.2mm for exhausts)

I'll wait here . . .
2019 Annual Funding Drive!
**********************************
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13755

BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 97,179 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 77,717 miles

jalabert
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by jalabert » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:44 pm

It'll be the weekend before I can answer your first question, but no to everything else. Boringly reliable starting, compression when I last did it (prob 10k miles ago) was 120 everywhere, pretty clean underneath except for the odd bit of weep from the pushrod tubes, and crap from the aforementioned leak at the back of the engine / drive flanges. Inside of the rocker covers as clean as a whistle.

Contact widths? Are you referring to the seating of the valve here - how much of the valve touches the seat?

One presumes that looking for new OG springs is a fool's errand...might take me - ooh, 25k miles?

Thanks for the heads up on the Manley valves!

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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:54 pm

jalabert wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:44 pm
A) Boringly reliable starting,
compression was 120
Inside of the rocker covers as clean as a whistle.

B) Contact widths? Are you referring to the seating of the valve here - how much of the valve touches the seat?

C) One presumes that looking for new OG springs is a fool's errand...might take me - ooh, 25k miles?

a) I think it best to let the engine soldier on.

b) yes, and the seat determines the contact width. Problem is, a lot of new machinists just slap in their spiffy 3-At-Once grinding stones, and they do not go through the critical questions:
* do I need to remove material at the 75* angle, or the 15* angle?
* do I need to standardize all valve heights in the head?

c) Measure yours first, is what I am getting at. Ask a machine shop. The only upset valve springs (heck, engines!) come from people who have deviated from the guidance of the stock engineering without promising to address every possible exingency. "Yaaah, doode, I got this awesome high-lift cam and broke valve springs, how? WTF, Nobody told me to check for 'coil bind' ..."
2019 Annual Funding Drive!
**********************************
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13755

BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 97,179 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 77,717 miles

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asiab3
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by asiab3 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:59 pm

Gene Berg's site was the only place I could find Manley stainless steel valves in VW sizes, but I haven't searched recently.

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=6 ... 69533eb805

I have had Excellent results with Ivam (made in Italy) stainless valves. I have about 80k miles on my set, and have gone as much as 15k miles without having to adjust any valves. (This is with original factory valve seats, new guides, and Porsche swivel feet adjusting screws.) Of course I still check valve clearances, but those valves Know What To Do in any climate under any load.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:44 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:59 pm
Gene Berg's site was the only place I could find Manley stainless steel valves in VW sizes, but I haven't searched recently.

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=6 ... 69533eb805

I have had Excellent results with Ivam (made in Italy) stainless valves. I have about 80k miles on my set, and have gone as much as 15k miles without having to adjust any valves. (This is with original factory valve seats, new guides, and Porsche swivel feet adjusting screws.) Of course I still check valve clearances, but those valves Know What To Do in any climate under any load.

Robbie
I am familiar with Osvat, but nothing comes up Ivam save for:

Institut Valencià D'Art Modern (IVAM)


I don't think we can evaluate our brand choices, not really, until the other end of their service lives, at engine teardown time or massive metallurgical failure time.

I had 153,000 miles on my Manley stainless steel valves in the Road Warrior when it got killed. I never got to see the stem diameter, the condition at the valve tips (with 911 swivelfoot adjusters, I reckon they were good), or the contact surfaces (they can dish if they are cheap). They lasted a nice long time, yes.

I am running Osvat valves in Chloe as we write here. 27,000 miles. They are youngsters. Can I say they are "excellent"? Nope. I cannot say yes or no until I truly get to the other side of their expected service lives.

The thing about valves, is that metallurgical failure is a totally invisible killer. The old welded chrome stems were known to detach from the valve face at inopportune times just from invisible stress lines. Beautiful valve adjustment stability does not give you a clue.
I think the Osvats are one piece, but they sure as heck aren't nice chrome stems with stellite faces.
I think I want Manley 21-4N at BobD rebuild time . . . coming up.
Colin
2019 Annual Funding Drive!
**********************************
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13755

BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 97,179 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 77,717 miles

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asiab3
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by asiab3 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:51 pm

Good points. I'll see if I can hit 100k with a Type 1 (except for camshaft et.al.) and I promise to take detailed pictures and measurements whenever it's no longer economic to operate. :salute:

Does anybody know what head hardware Len Hoffman uses? Surely he cares about quality! Perhaps Ambassador Jivermo could reach out?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
119k miles with me.
296k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:02 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:51 pm
Good points. I'll see if I can hit 100k with a Type 1 (except for camshaft et.al.) and I promise to take detailed pictures and measurements whenever it's no longer economic to operate. :salute:

Does anybody know what head hardware Len Hoffman uses? Surely he cares about quality! Perhaps Ambassador Jivermo could reach out?

Robbie
Seeing as I just yesterday morning paid for three sets of heads just yesterday morning, mon dieu! I have been in touch with Len just yesterday morning. It's like a tic or sumpin, doc, just started yesterday morning.
I got the feeling that he has a proprietary firewall.
Colin
2019 Annual Funding Drive!
**********************************
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13755

BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 97,179 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 77,717 miles

jalabert
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by jalabert » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:29 pm

A belated thanks for the advice...I took the bus and the daughter a hundred k up the coast on Monday, ran like a sewing machine...

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Amskeptic
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:40 am

jalabert wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:29 pm
A belated thanks for the advice...I took the bus and the daughter a hundred k up the coast on Monday, ran like a sewing machine...

People say "ran like a sewing machine" like its good or something. I wince.
I see sewing machines vibrate pens and table lamps right off the edge. :geek:

So, I am going to guess that your bus ran well, even smoothly.
The important question is, did you and she have fun? There is no better people conveyance than a VW bus.
Colin
2019 Annual Funding Drive!
**********************************
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13755

BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 97,179 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 77,717 miles

jalabert
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by jalabert » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:38 pm

If I said the sewing machine was one of those old hand-operated singers so heavy they can only be moved by a team of elephants? :bom:

It was great - had my daughter back from uni life for a couple of days. Went surfing, read crappy books, cruised the coast looking for coffee. Doesn't seem to matter whether she's three or twenty-three - still fills every available storage nook with shells...

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tommu
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by tommu » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:43 pm

jalabert wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:38 pm
If I said the sewing machine was one of those old hand-operated singers so heavy they can only be moved by a team of elephants? :bom:

It was great - had my daughter back from uni life for a couple of days. Went surfing, read crappy books, cruised the coast looking for coffee. Doesn't seem to matter whether she's three or twenty-three - still fills every available storage nook with shells...
Sounds wonderful. Easy to forget that it's summer down there.

AND try running your perfectly balanced type 4 engine on a sewing machine table. You'll wish it ran like a sewing machine.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Cylinder head hardware

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:05 pm

tommu wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:43 pm
AND try running your perfectly balanced type 4 engine on a sewing machine table. You'll wish it ran like a sewing machine.

Fine! Try running your bus with a sewing machine hooked up to the transaxle, so THERE.
You'll wish it ran like a Type 4 . . .
Colin :drunken:
2019 Annual Funding Drive!
**********************************
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13755

BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,155 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,820 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 97,179 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 77,717 miles

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