Tire Rotation - Uneven Tread Wear

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BellePlaine
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Location: Minnesota
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Tire Rotation - Uneven Tread Wear

Post by BellePlaine » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:04 am

My Hankook RA08 185R14 tires have 11,506 miles on them. After 7,450 miles I measured the tread depth and rotated them, remembering to in bring the fresh spare tire into service.

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And then yesterday, after another 4,056 miles have passed, I rotated these tires again. Like this.
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Note the passenger side rear tire. It lost 2 mm of tread depth compared to 0.5 mm on the other three. Here's a closer look.
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See how the inner edge is a bit more "round"? What's up with that?

EDIT; What year is it? Apparently I think that it is still 2014 per my second drawing.
1975 Riviera we call "Spider-Man"

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wcfvw69
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Re: Tire Rotation - Uneven Tread Wear

Post by wcfvw69 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:31 pm

Back in the early 80's, when I was a young kid, I worked at a tire alignment shop. The owner who was training me already had 25 years in the business. He told me that you should only ever need to rotate your tires once when the tire reaches 50% of the tread remaining. By then, the rear tires have worn more in the middle than the sides since they are fixed. The front tires have worn more on the sides of the treads due to the steering. So, when the tires have half of their tread remaining, you move the fronts to the backs and backs to the fronts until they are worn out and need to be replaced. This theory is contingent upon the vehicle having a good alignment both front and rear, the proper tire pressures being run and the tires balanced correctly. Also, having good shocks as well.

I have a 2012 Jeep that now has about 25k miles. The tires have about 50% remaining. I am going to now, for the first time, rotate the tires that are wearing exactly as discribed above. My last company vehicle had Michelins on it. I rotated the tires once at 45k and replaced them at 90K miles.

He saw absolutely no value or additional tire life in constantly rotating tires through their life time on the vehicle. In the last 30 years I've followed his advice and always got or exceeded the expected miles out of the tires I ran. He also felt that the sudden "marketing" need to rotate tires was only a revenue generator for tire companies. You follow their suggestion to rotate the tires so many --- miles, take your car in and they find "other" things wrong with your car that now needs to be fixed as well.

At my last alignment job in the late 80's, we had Discount Tire recommending us for alignments. Why? Because we fixed all their broken wheel studs on their customers cars due to cross threading and then snapping off the stud from the hubs. Constantly taking wheels off and on increases chances of young kids with powerful air impact guns jamming on the tire nuts cross threaded.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Tire Rotation - Uneven Tread Wear

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:31 pm

wcfvw69 wrote: I worked at a tire alignment shop. The owner saw absolutely no value or additional tire life in constantly rotating tires through their life time on the vehicle. He also felt that the sudden "marketing" need to rotate tires was only a revenue generator for tire companies.
Belle Plaine,
The right rear tire wears more than any other on the vehicle, normally.
Do the palm tire read that I have taught every customer without fail since 2002, and let us know if you feel any toe-induced roughness on front and rear tires.

Wcfvw69, I absolutely will not:
* pay for others/let others touch my lugs
* rotate tires that do not ask for it.
All of my rear wheel drive German cars like/d having rotations with fully independent suspensions that do the negative camber in the rear and positive camber in the front.

I warned the service counter at Pep Boys who installed my Michelin MXV's on my Mercedes to tell the mechanic NOT to attempt to upgrade me with bogus claims of mechanical deficiencies, because I would listen and play stupid and even let him write me a service ticket before I would bite his head off and call the attorney general of the state of New York. I also brought my own torque wrench sitting there on the passenger seat. A fair warning, I would say.

"Excuse me, sir, is that your Mercedes? Yes, I just thought you should know that your drag strut cushion is worn out and your upper ball joints are seriously worn."
"Oh, gee, you better show me, I wouldn't know a drag strut cushion from a subpoena . . . "
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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BellePlaine
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Re: Tire Rotation - Uneven Tread Wear

Post by BellePlaine » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:59 pm

I'll give the palm test to the now front right tire and report back.

You both reminded me; I wanted to chat about wheel lug nut torques. Bentley wants 94 ft lbs. I used a torque
wrench on these rims for the first time ever yesterday and now that I know what 94 feels like, I think that I've been over torquing in the past.
1975 Riviera we call "Spider-Man"

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Amskeptic
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Re: Tire Rotation - Uneven Tread Wear

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:12 pm

BellePlaine wrote:I'll give the palm test to the now front right tire and report back.

I wanted to chat about wheel lug nut torques. Bentley wants 94 ft lbs. now that I know what 94 feels like, I think that I've been over torquing in the past.
Without a doubt. Now re-read my caution on rear wheel axle nut overtightening, wherever it is.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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wcfvw69
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Re: Tire Rotation - Uneven Tread Wear

Post by wcfvw69 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:15 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
wcfvw69 wrote: I worked at a tire alignment shop. The owner saw absolutely no value or additional tire life in constantly rotating tires through their life time on the vehicle. He also felt that the sudden "marketing" need to rotate tires was only a revenue generator for tire companies.
Belle Plaine,
The right rear tire wears more than any other on the vehicle, normally.
Do the palm tire read that I have taught every customer without fail since 2002, and let us know if you feel any toe-induced roughness on front and rear tires.

Wcfvw69, I absolutely will not:
* pay for others/let others touch my lugs
* rotate tires that do not ask for it.
All of my rear wheel drive German cars like/d having rotations with fully independent suspensions that do the negative camber in the rear and positive camber in the front.

I warned the service counter at Pep Boys who installed my Michelin MXV's on my Mercedes to tell the mechanic NOT to attempt to upgrade me with bogus claims of mechanical deficiencies, because I would listen and play stupid and even let him write me a service ticket before I would bite his head off and call the attorney general of the state of New York. I also brought my own torque wrench sitting there on the passenger seat. A fair warning, I would say.

"Excuse me, sir, is that your Mercedes? Yes, I just thought you should know that your drag strut cushion is worn out and your upper ball joints are seriously worn."
"Oh, gee, you better show me, I wouldn't know a drag strut cushion from a subpoena . . . "
Colin
Yes, it is QUITE sickening how much auto repair shops still rip people off. Dealers seem to be the worse by far. A recent example-

The same Jeep had a recall on it. I took it to the dealer to have the recall addressed. While it was there, they were having a $16.99 oil change special. It costs me $32 dollars to buy the filter and oil when I do it myself. While I was dropping it off w/the service writer, he went into "sales mode" w/me. "I see you have a chip on your windshield, I can change it for X dollars". Then he suggested a tire rotation and balance (that it DIDN'T need). So, I politely decline all his "upselling" BS. I approved the oil change and that's all. Not 10 minutes after I get home, my phone rings. "Hi, this is so and so from Jeep. Your vehicle needs a front end aligment for $90 dollars". I take a deep breath, then ask WHY and how they base this information that it "needs" an alignment? The service writer could only share that "it was recommended at X-miles". I declined the "recommendation". Mind you, this vehicles tires were wearing perfectly. I'm very mindful of tire inflations and frequent visual inspections. It just makes me sick that businesses and individuals can so grossly steal from un-suspecting people.

In regards to some vehicles designed negative or positive camber, our alignment shop was also a frame shop as well. Yes, some manufactors set negative or positive camber for handling. When we'd get a customer in who was upset with their tire wear on a fairly new vehicle, we'd check the alignment of the front or rear. If it was in spec, we'd explain this is how that manufactor designed it for handling. They'd explain they didn't want to keep buying tires every 15k miles w/frequent roations and what else could we do to stop the tire wear.
We'd tell them we could do special alignments on their vehicles to stop negative camber or positive camber tire wear. We rarely had "come backs" after performing this work to stop the tire wear. We also got lots of referrals to do the same work on others same types of vehicles. An example is - IRS beatles were known for their inside tire wear on the rear due to negative camber, even with the torsion bars set correctly. We'd simply use a porta-power and chain and slightly bend the trailing arms to increase the camber to stop the tire wear. We'd then reset the tracking and toe. We had tools to bend struts, we could slot camber/caster adjustments, etc.

The thing I always respected about that owner/boss was he was HONEST. He'd NEVER rip anyone off nor would he let any of his techs.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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