NOS Wheel Cylinders

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kreemoweet
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by kreemoweet » Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:29 pm

Cheaters put nylock nuts on there instead of using the cotters & castle nuts.

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asiab3
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by asiab3 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:13 pm

kreemoweet wrote:Cheaters put nylock nuts on there instead of using the cotters & castle nuts.
Apparently nylock is enough on our tie rod ends and drag link ends, but not enough on our steering boxes? :scratch:
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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hambone
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by hambone » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:06 am

The nuts were so purty and I just happened to have 4 tiny cotters lying around I decided to re-use them. Nylock is not a bad idea.
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asiab3
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by asiab3 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:15 am

hambone wrote:The nuts were so purty and I just happened to have 4 tiny cotters lying around I decided to re-use them. Nylock is not a bad idea.
Cotter/castle is definitely the way to go, I was more curious about the dichotomy than anything else.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:39 pm

asiab3 wrote:
hambone wrote:The nuts were so purty and I just happened to have 4 tiny cotters lying around I decided to re-use them. Nylock is not a bad idea.
Cotter/castle is definitely the way to go, I was more curious about the dichotomy than anything else.
Fine, hang out with royalty, I crash out at the dichotomy.
What?

So, anyways, it is CHEAPER to use nyloc nuts, thus new drag links and tie rods use nyloc nuts.

Side note:
Perhaps nyloc is handy on crankcase bolts for sealing qualities, but note that many say to install them upside down to put the nylon against the washers. Guess what? They lose their locking properties if they are installed upside down. The nylon compresses to lock when reverse torque is applied (as in loosening). If installed upside down, the nylon is stretched if the nut backs off, no resistance. I noticed this on Chloe's main bearing nuts that had dropped to 12 ft/lbs.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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asiab3
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by asiab3 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:35 am

The cheaper thing makes sense with the new tie rods and drag links… :pale:

By dichotomy, I was referring to kreemoweet calling out "nylock cheaters" when Meyle and Febi are both using nylocks.
Amskeptic wrote: Side note:
Perhaps nyloc is handy on crankcase bolts for sealing qualities, but note that many say to install them upside down to put the nylon against the washers. Guess what? They lose their locking properties if they are installed upside down. The nylon compresses to lock when reverse torque is applied (as in loosening). If installed upside down, the nylon is stretched if the nut backs off, no resistance. I noticed this on Chloe's main bearing nuts that had dropped to 12 ft/lbs.
I was working with Aeromech on TomPowell's engine last month; we had UV dye in the oil and a blacklight showing oil bubbling out of the upper center area of the case. (Imagine where the oil cooler would be if the whole engine was mirrored.) After pulling the fan shroud, I spun the upper middle main bearing nut with my fingers it was so loose. Sure enough, the locking/sealing surface was towards the case and dripping. :shaking:

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1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:54 am

asiab3 wrote:The cheaper thing makes sense with the new tie rods and drag links… :pale:

TomPowell's engine showing oil bubbling out of the upper center area of the case, I spun the upper middle main bearing nut with my fingers it was so loose. Sure enough, the locking/sealing surface was towards the case and dripping. :shaking:

RobbieLeakFreeAt13,452
Then it is time to go forth, Young Robbie, and warn the legions. Perhaps we could warn the eight people here on the Itinerant Air-Cooled site in the Engine Forum, there' some sort of appropriate thread there, "Engine Assembly Notes"?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

kreemoweet
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by kreemoweet » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:34 pm

What mystifies me is why sealing nuts were ever used on cases that had the internal O-rings around the M12 studs. I never used sealing
nuts there because I don't like the reduced torque (18 ft-lbs) specified by VW.

I don't think sealing nuts and Nylocs are the same thing. They seem to be made differently.

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Amskeptic
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:41 am

kreemoweet wrote:What mystifies me is why sealing nuts were ever used on cases that had the internal O-rings around the M12 studs. I never used sealing
nuts there because I don't like the reduced torque (18 ft-lbs) specified by VW.

I don't think sealing nuts and Nylocs are the same thing. They seem to be made differently.
Yes, I have seen what looks like application-specific sealing nuts, and I have seen red nylocs, like what I have on Chloe.

Damn if language/translation isn't tricky.

If you read that technical note/bulletin, it is pretty clear to me that when VW countersunk the case for sealing rings on the main bearing studs, they went back to washers/plain nuts for #2 as well as all the rest.

per BugHaus:
The case sealing nuts were listed by VW as an option to be used in place of the stock plain nut if needed due to leakage. Once VW introduced the 113101125 Case Stud O-Ring the sealing nuts were no longer meant to be used.

So let's guess (and that is all we are doing) why the torque value would be 18 for the nylon vs 25 for the steel washers?

Less surface area at the magnesium case without a steel washer, must not crunch?
Superior clamping?

I do know that I would only use steel washers, plain nuts, Permatex Aviation on all surfaces, 25 ft/lbs re-checked several times.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

kreemoweet
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by kreemoweet » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:38 pm

Amskeptic wrote: ... technical note/bulletin ...
Nah, all I have to go by is the Bentley manuals on that subject. I suppose I should know better than to be mystified by anything therein, by now.
There seems to be a wrongness in the 70-79 Type I manual, as it clearly states sealing nuts were "standard" on 71-73 Type 1 cases.

Interestingly, the M10 sealing nuts for the Type 4 engines are supposed to be installed plastic outwards, w/normal washers and normal torque,
and with sealing compound applied, in complete opposition to the earlier sealing nut method. A Nyloc by any other name . . .

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Amskeptic
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:01 am

kreemoweet wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: ... technical note/bulletin ...
Nah, all I have to go by is the Bentley manuals on that subject. I suppose I should know better than to be mystified by anything therein, by now.
There seems to be a wrongness in the 70-79 Type I manual, as it clearly states sealing nuts were "standard" on 71-73 Type 1 cases.

Interestingly, the M10 sealing nuts for the Type 4 engines are supposed to be installed plastic outwards, w/normal washers and normal torque,
and with sealing compound applied, in complete opposition to the earlier sealing nut method. A Nyloc by any other name . . .
We are at an advanced state of "owner knowledge", more aware of the VW engineer's concerns than ever before. Add to that our daily struggles to keep these cars running well past their designed life spans.

I can tell you from personal experience that the Bentley Manual is but a cash cow. There is little concern for the actual cars, the people who work there do not know the street level concerns, and could give a rat's ass about whether or not you can read the pathetic xeroxed wiring diagrams that seem to shrink each year.

It is up to us to apply our best scientific testing and interpretation of our own results of actually living with these cars. We also have to wade through the dirty tricky lazy marketing and bombastic egos of "experts" who can blab all day about things they have precious little real experience with.

The sealed nuts with the plastic inward makes only cursory sense, but a careful analysis of oil infiltration and local dynamics of engine vibration/expansion-contraction suggests using a flexible sealant on big washers (that really should be used without question) and the assistance of compressed nylon at the outer end of the optional sealed nuts. Me? I use big washers and steel nuts with plenty of Permatex Aviation. I'll let you know when I have clamping or leaking issues . . . like I did, with Chloe's engine using the stupid sealing nuts installed backwards.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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wcfvw69
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:05 pm

Amskeptic wrote: Add to that our daily struggles to keep these cars running well past their designed life spans.

Colin
I often reflect on the age of my VW's with a sense of disbelief. Why? I guess I'm getting older now too, like my VW's. It's sometimes hard to wrap my noggin around the fact that my VW's are all approaching 50 years of age. Like many of the participants on this form, I'm in the over 50 group and grew up as a kid around these ever increasingly popular cars. I often ask myself why I still enjoy working on these cars and being a care taker to them. Then, I jump in one and go for a drive and the "why" is answered rather quickly. These cars are simply a joy to drive. The smiles, thumbs ups, kids punching each other and the folks sharing their VW stories at the gas pumps make it all worth while.

As far as keeping our VW's running past their designed life span, I think of other examples. One that always come to mind are World War II warbirds that were built in the hundreds of thousands for their expected short life spans. Yet today, many of them have been saved by airplane enthusiasts (with deep pockets) and are restored to like new condition with both NOS parts and new built parts. Every time I question myself for my enthusiasm in driving and maintaining a 50 year old car, I chuckle and think of the warbirds that were built 70 years ago and have to fly. It's a reminder that keeping my old cars in top shape is nothing in comparison to them.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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hambone
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Re: NOS Wheel Cylinders

Post by hambone » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:44 pm

We are at an advanced state of "owner knowledge", more aware of the VW engineer's concerns than ever before. Add to that our daily struggles to keep these cars running well past their designed life spans.

I can tell you from personal experience that the Bentley Manual is but a cash cow. There is little concern for the actual cars, the people who work there do not know the street level concerns, and could give a rat's ass about whether or not you can read the pathetic xeroxed wiring diagrams that seem to shrink each year.
hee made me laugh thanks
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

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