loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

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Lanval
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by Lanval » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:18 pm

nathan@el wrote:Thanks Randy! I would have never thought about using zip ties to hold the relays in tight, but it sounds like an excellent idea to me. What's weird is that I can't even imagine how the relay got loose to begin with. It's not like it's super loose in the socket, and it seems to be on there pretty tight to me now that I've pushed it in. I guess many miles of bumps and vibrations somehow managed to work it loose a little bit.
N,

Yeah that would do it. When my double relay went south, I was on 55 in traffic at the I5 interchange on my way back from the junkyard. Stopped me dead. The engine would turn and turn, but no starty. It was doing the power loss thing prior to death, like it wasn't getting enough gas or something.

M.

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nathan@el
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by nathan@el » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:20 pm

Well, it looks like I spoke too soon. The van seemed better for a day, but now it's back to its old tricks. I still need to replace the TS II...once I can figure out exactly where it's located.

Any other ideas? Bad double relay? Dying fuel pump?

--N
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine

steve74baywin
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by steve74baywin » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:10 pm

nathan@el wrote:Well, it looks like I spoke too soon. The van seemed better for a day, but now it's back to its old tricks. I still need to replace the TS II...once I can figure out exactly where it's located.

Any other ideas? Bad double relay? Dying fuel pump?

Mike, maybe we should meet up sometime soon. How's your van doing these days?

--N

Follow the wiring harness coming from the ECU, it should be a single wire headed to the heads. I've seen them mounted under the tin where you can't get to them, and I've seen them mounted close to the intake studs, if memory serves me. It's been a few years.

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Amskeptic
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:58 am

nathan@el wrote:Well, it looks like I spoke too soon. The van seemed better for a day, but now it's back to its old tricks. I still need to replace the TS II...once I can figure out exactly where it's located.

Any other ideas? Bad double relay? Dying fuel pump?

--N
It is usually located just forward of the #3 intake runner, screws into the head with a 13mm wrench, black wire coming out the center like the one you got from Bus Depot. Terminal at the end of the wire should connect to a spade inside a plastic rectangular connector. Git it done. For fun, move black plastic cog inside the AFM's black box 6 teeth CLOCKWISE CLOCKWISE CLOCKWISE, and let me know if the symptoms improve or worsen! Restore to initial location if symptoms worsen.
Colin ^&%@$&#RainInWisconsin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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nathan@el
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by nathan@el » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:01 pm

Okay, thanks guys for helping me locate the TS II--which I did, right where you told me it would be (by #3 intake).

Next question: how in the world do I actually REMOVE the damn thing?! I tried accessing it with a socket set, an adjustable wrench and a non-adjustable wrench--for half an hour--and I just couldn't get at it enough to loosen it. It's way down there by the head, and a firewall on two sides. Plus, the problem is compounded by the fact that there is a non-removable WIRE attached to the thing, making it impossible to get a socket over it anyway. Arrggg. :angryfire:

Sorry to get annoyed, but this problem is starting to frustrate the heck out of me. I've been planning a weeklong trip up to Tahoe in a month for two extremely close friends' wedding, and the van was a central part of this picture (both in terms of me actually getting there, and also to camp/hang out in during the wedding)... I need this thing to work!

Colin, I haven't messed with the AFM yet because I wanted to try the TS II FIRST to see if that solved the problem before I start opening up additional cans of worms, so to speak.

I'm going to have a beer...
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine

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Randy in Maine
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by Randy in Maine » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:23 pm

I use a box end wrench (actually a "gear wrench") after unhooking the wire. I would dose it up with some PB Blaster a few times before wrenching too hard on it. They have gentle 10mm x 1.0 mm threads.
79 VW Bus

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Amskeptic
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:14 am

nathan@el wrote: how in the world do I actually REMOVE the damn thing?!
If Yours Is Recessed In Engine Tin:
You need a deep well 13mm socket and you need to smush the annoying black wire inside the socket as you bring the socket down to mesh with the sensor.

If Yours Is Flush:
A 13mm box wrench can zip that sucker off in a second.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Gypsie
rusty aircooled mekanich
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by Gypsie » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:15 am

You can hold a 13 mm straight down on it (like a screw driver) and turn the wrench with pliers,crescent, or a screwdriver through the closed end. It is a tight location to work in.

The deep socket way works great if'n you have one. It's worth having one.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

Lanval
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by Lanval » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:32 pm

OK, Houston, we got a problem.

Lanval has deep sockets, but N had a darn hard time getting the temp sensor out. Here's why:

Image

Image

Image

Is there any agreement that this was put in wrong? I thought at first that it might be some kind of thread locking paste, but it's pretty hard ~ I couldn't get it to flake off with my finger or a screwdriver....

So what fix is there, if any? We have a new temp sensor, but I'm loathe to tell N to just slam it in there. That may be the "Fix" though, if there's no way we can solve this today...

Help!

Mike

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nathan@el
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by nathan@el » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:14 pm

So, as everybody can see from the above post by Lanval, the shop who installed my rebuilt engine two years ago not only reused my old TS II sender--which is excusable enough-- but also managed to cross-thread the living hell out of it when they reinstalled it in my BRAND NEW heads. :angryfire:

Lanval and I weren't so excited when we discovered this, and we spent a good hour or two wondering "what to do". At this point, the old sender was already destroyed in the removal process (the wire snapped off, not to mention that the threads were completely thrashed), and we figured that re-tapping the hole would be a no-no since then the sender would definitely be too small to fit after doing that procedure. Left without many options, I went to cry in the corner (well, not really, but I wanted to) while Lanval left a quick message with Colin asking for advice.

Eventually, I just said "the hell with it", and decided that we may as well see if we can just thread the new TS II into the bungled hole and hope that it: a) goes in, and b) is tight enough to function correctly. The heads are pretty soft, so I didn't have too much trouble just ratcheting the new sender in. We were both worried about stripping the threads on the head further and making it non-functional, but after getting the sender torqued down I thought that it was "pretty good"--pretty good meaning it was relatively tight and seemed to be seated okay. I got some good advice from Lanval and used his handy shop vac to clean out the hole of any small metal shavings before we attempted to install the sender. Also, Lanval had the brilliant idea to zip-tie up the wire on the sender so we could fit it into the socket without mangling the wire like I did with the old sender.

I wasn't overly optimistic this would all work out well, but I fired up the van and we took it on a 20 minute test drive. The good news is that the sender remained solidly in place, and it also DID seem to solve my stumbling issue, at least so far... :cheers:

We'll see how everything holds up. So, was this all a terrible idea? Should I be worried about this solution, or just assume it's good to go at least until I need to instal another TS II (which is hopefully NEVER). Should we have done something differently? Hopefully not, since what's done is pretty much done now.

And, what is the lesson in all of this? Don't let a shop do any work for you! After paying too much money for a rebuilt type IV, I would expect them to at least, you know, not completely screw up by brand new head. Is that too much to ask? Sheesh.
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine

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fancy pants
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by fancy pants » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:35 pm

nathan@el wrote:Update:
Would a loose double relay potentially cause the symptoms that I've been describing above?
Absolutely! I think you may be on the right track :cheers:
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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Amskeptic
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:02 pm

nathan@el wrote: Lanval left a quick message with Colin asking for advice.

Eventually, I just said "the hell with it", just ratcheting the new sender in.
was this all a terrible idea?

And, what is the lesson in all of this? Don't let a shop do any work for you!
That is who that was? That was Lanval? I was driving in a thunderstorm wind event and the damn phone signalled a voice message. I tried to hear it above the racket. Pulled off the road into a gas station.
"PPhhhh s kkkkkk val just wan vvvvv OK or not c-c-c-c-c-c-sen-c-c-c-ipped c-c- on the vvv-c-c-c-ccc-rum......... OK see shhhhhhhh"

The sensor just sits there. You thread it in, it sits. Good job.
And AMEN do it yourself, good grief, friggen nobody cares any more it seems.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Lanval
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by Lanval » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:41 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
nathan@el wrote: Lanval left a quick message with Colin asking for advice.

Eventually, I just said "the hell with it", just ratcheting the new sender in.
was this all a terrible idea?

And, what is the lesson in all of this? Don't let a shop do any work for you!
That is who that was? That was Lanval? I was driving in a thunderstorm wind event and the damn phone signalled a voice message. I tried to hear it above the racket. Pulled off the road into a gas station.
"PPhhhh s kkkkkk val just wan vvvvv OK or not c-c-c-c-c-c-sen-c-c-c-ipped c-c- on the vvv-c-c-c-ccc-rum......... OK see shhhhhhhh"

The sensor just sits there. You thread it in, it sits. Good job.
And AMEN do it yourself, good grief, friggen nobody cares any more it seems.
Colin
And you didn't call me back?! I am so deducting the cost of the call from your visit...

Mike

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nathan@el
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by nathan@el » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:24 am

The sensor just sits there. You thread it in, it sits. Good job.
Well, I'm glad to know that our solution gets the Colin approval! I've taken a couple of more short drives, and I think we actually nailed the problem this time! Let's just hope this sensor lasts for the life of the engine, since I doubt we can easily get another sensor in there.
Orange 1980 Vanagon L Westy
~190,000 miles on body
~20,000 on engine

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Gypsie
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Location: Treadin' Lightly under the Clear Blue!
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Re: loss of power/stuttering issue. Now no start.

Post by Gypsie » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:35 am

If you find that the sensor loosens due to heat cool cycles, you might try putting it into the unbungled hole on the other head (it will be next to the #2). It might have a different temp than near the #3 but shouldn't be enough to change too much.

Way to keep on it.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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