78 Westy/starter/reinstall difficulty

[Jr. Buser]

After replacing the bushing in the flywheel and trying to re-install the rebuilt starter (bosch) it will not go in properly. Is it possible that the bushing is angled slightly preventing the shaft from sliding all the way in and I just can't see from the angle? I have felt it and it feels as if it is seated all the way in just as the old bushing was prior to removing it.

Again, thank you for your input.

Brett

[Amskeptic]

After replacing the bushing in the flywheel

Do you mean, perchance, the bell housing, the big stationary hunk of magnesium upon which the starter and the engine reside?

trying to re-install the rebuilt starter (bosch) it will not go in properly.
Is it possible that the bushing is angled slightly preventing the shaft from sliding all the way in and I just can't see from the angle?

Much more likely that the collar on the starter shaft is not in the correct position. The pinion shoots out when the starter engages, and this collar determines the depth of the pinion's engagement with the flywheel teeth (flywheel, big steel job that rotates on the engine). If this collar is too far down the starter shaft, it bangs into the edge of the bell housing bushing before you have the starter seated. It is so unlikely that the collar has been installed incorrectly, that I must ask that you to double-check the part number on the box, on the starter, and compare them to the required starter for your vehicle. Manual transmission, post-1976 is required parameter, I do so believe.
Colin

[Jr. Buser]

Do you mean, perchance, the bell housing, the big stationary hunk of magnesium upon which the starter and the engine reside?

Yes, seeing as how it doesn't rotate with each revolution of the engine. My mind was far ahead of my eyes while typing. I promise not to do it again. I tried to cross reference numbers, but core was already returned. When I returned starter rebuild kit, I carefully examined starters together and was very confident it was correct for manual application.I somehow managed to drive the bushing in slightly angled toward center of bus. I noticed paint coming off starter body where it was touching a rib on the top of the transmission. I cut threads off of a similar size bolt and gently massaged it towards passenger side of bus. Starter is almost fully seated. Light is minimal so I'll finish install carefully tomorrow. Thanks again.

Brett

[Amskeptic]

When I returned starter rebuild kit, I carefully examined starters together and was very confident it was correct for manual application.

External dimensions would be dead-on the same if you indeed do have the correct starter. So now my question is what part of the starter has stopped you from getting it to just seat clunk that easy. If it is hanging up at the shaft collar, you will feel the resistance at direct center of starter, i.e. you can pivot it slightly side to side as you try to get it flush. If there is an external resistance like starter motor scraping against transaxle, then I am magnificently at a loss for words. . . . . .
Colin

[Jr. Buser]

So now my question is what part of the starter has stopped you from getting it to just seat clunk that easy. If it is hanging up at the shaft collar, you will feel the resistance at direct center of starter, i.e. you can pivot it slightly side to side as you try to get it flush. If there is an external resistance like starter motor scraping against transaxle, then I am magnificently at a loss for words. . . . . .
Colin

I used the same approach to attempt diagnosis. Where is the hang up? There was no "pivot" at all. Between starter housing touching transmissioin, and inability to get starter shaft to seat in bushing, my conclusion is that it was somehow at the wrong angle. I removed old starter several times and put it in several times with no problems. By process of elimination the only change from my perspective was the bushing. Since I used my left hand to tap it in, and I'm right handed (who knows if this is bs) it seemed possible that I could hit at an incorrect angle.

I also visually inspected the collar and shaft every time it would not seat and I removed it. the only part of the starter with any markings of contact inside the belhousing was the shaft tip. I was not under the influence either, so I have ruled that out as well. I'll be trying to get up there soon, so I'll report back.

Thanks and sorry if I caused any horriffic brain pains.

Brett

[Jr. Buser]

Update:

Starter installed and when tested, all sounded perfect. However, now starter won't quit when key is turned off. Wasn't like this before. I have a feeling that in my haste I added an extra hot lead that was perhaps hanging loose before. I'll check my wiring before doing anything else. Next time I'll restrain my excitement.

Thanks

[Amskeptic]

Update:

Starter installed and when tested, all sounded perfect. However, now starter won't quit when key is turned off. Wasn't like this before. I have a feeling that in my haste I added an extra hot lead that was perhaps hanging loose before.

If the pinion is jamming up against the flywheel, then the contact washer in the solenoid will keep supplying voltage to the motor. There is a spring inside the solenoid that breaks the battery/starter motor contact when you release the key. Try loosening the 15mm lower nut on the starter flange and the 17mm upper nut (inside the engine compartment) and clock the starter just a bit to stress relieve it, and try again.

The leads are pretty straightforward, all eyelet ends go on the 13mm post along with the batterty cable. The push-ons go on the spade terminals, and if you get the starter to respond to your key turn, then that wiring is OK.
Colin

[Jr. Buser]

Try loosening the 15mm lower nut on the starter flange and the 17mm upper nut (inside the engine compartment) and clock the starter just a bit to stress relieve it, and try again. Colin

I tried this with no success. Then I took it a step further by completely removing the starter with wires attached. It seemed a bit difficult to remove. Couldn't tell if there was binding in male protrusion ring around base of starter or in the pinion. I then re-installed it and tried re-starting it only to have it keep going. I was going to try having my wife turn the key while I held the starter outside of the belhousing and see if it shuts off while not engaging the flywheel. If this is a bad idea, please advise.

Thanks

Brett

[AzironaZack]

The starter is grounded by it's contact with the bell housing. If you remove it while wired up then turn the key nothing will happen because it's not grounded.

Also, I never try to remove the starter while the wiring is hot. The battery gets disconnected first and foremost every time. Unexpected sparks and shocks while working are startling as hell and the knee jerk reaction is where you hurt yourself.

[Amskeptic]

It seemed a bit difficult to remove. Couldn't tell if there was binding in male protrusion ring around base of starter or in the pinion. I then re-installed it and tried re-starting it only to have it keep going. I was going to try having my wife turn the key while I held the starter outside of the belhousing and see if it shuts off while not engaging the flywheel. If this is a bad idea, please advise.

Starter must be grounded against metal. It is a fine idea for those who are prepared for two scenarios:

1. The starter has a kickback, hold firmly.
2. If it continues to run and run with no load, pull away from metal surface to shut it off. Have wife disconnect pre-loosened NEGATIVE battery terminal.
3. Let's figure this out! Dang, starters are supposed to be easy.

[Jr. Buser]

1. The starter has a kickback, hold firmly.
2. If it continues to run and run with no load, pull away from metal surface to shut it off. Have wife disconnect pre-loosened NEGATIVE battery terminal.
3. Let's figure this out! Dang, starters are supposed to be easy.

I agree, this should be easy. Here is more detailed info.

1. Old starter was killed by PO. It DID click on and off with key. This leads me to believe ignition is ok. You did not say it was bad, just crossing off the list.

2. New starter never fit propperly after install of bushing in bellhousing. Unfortunately I never tried to fit it with old bushing.

3. While trying to get starter installed and figure out what was preventing insertion, I moved drive pinion to hear a "sound" that sounded like a coiled spring scraping metal. Not a grind, but like scraping the end of a paper clip on metal. This did not seem to cause any change in the starter or its appearance.

4. Above sound leads me to believe that there is a problem with the cutoff you spoke of inside the starter.

I will take pictures when kids are napping and post later. Wife may help me tonight if no other solution is found.

Thanks

Brett

[Jr. Buser]

Got some decent pictures today. I'm leaning towards pulling the bushing and replacing it if "wife test" does not indicate a solution. It looks like there are some marks in or around the bushing, however it could be grease. (from previous starter as I didn't grease it) It feels smooth on the outside where it is seated in bellhousing. This is just a thought. If these pictures indicate something I am unaware of, please let me know as this is truly a frustrating learning experience.

Thanks

Brett


http://cid-fb012bc3eaa12e65.spaces.live ... fault.aspx[/img]

[Amskeptic]

2. New starter never fit propperly after install of bushing in bellhousing. I moved drive pinion to hear a "sound" that sounded like a coiled spring scraping metal.
4. Above sound leads me to believe that there is a problem with the cutoff you spoke of inside the starter.

You can bench-test the starter with jumper cables. Negative clamps tothe mounting flange. Positive clamps carefully to the positive post. To test the motor itself, you bridge the lower post to the jumper cable clamp, to test the solenoid, you bridge the solenoid spade to the jumper cable clamp edge. The first test will just wing the motor over. The second will give you a startling kerclunk as the pinion is forced out then the motor is energized. My guess is that the pinion will spring back just fine and the motor will de-energize just fine off the car. Do a couple of cycles to see how easily and reliably the solenoid works. Do you have a question about the inner diameter of the bushing in the bell housing? Did it compress on its trip into the bell housing hole? Did you remove the old bushing OK?
(or just drive it into the crankcase with the new bushing? The new bushing is flush with the INSIDE end of the bell housing hole, right?)
Colin

[Jr. Buser]

The starter is grounded by it's contact with the bell housing. If you remove it while wired up then turn the key nothing will happen because it's not grounded.

Also, I never try to remove the starter while the wiring is hot. The battery gets disconnected first and foremost every time. Unexpected sparks and shocks while working are startling as hell and the knee jerk reaction is where you hurt yourself.

Thank you ArizonaZack. I was just starting to read about the ground on the starter. I know there has to be one, but just wasn't sure how it worked without a ground strap. This is the 3rd starter for me on the 3rd different vehicle. Toyota, Nissan and now VW. Others were flawless as 99.9999% are, I believe.

I was an still to some degree uncertain of the "wife test" as I describe it, but if that is what it takes to propperly diagnose the problem, then I have a good set of welding gloves ready. Thankfully I can't move much while holding the starter. If I choose this route, I will be careful. Thank you.

[Jr. Buser]

Do you have a question about the inner diameter of the bushing in the bell housing? Did it compress on its trip into the bell housing hole? Did you remove the old bushing OK?
(or just drive it into the crankcase with the new bushing? The new bushing is flush with the INSIDE end of the bell housing hole, right?)
Colin

1. No questions that I can think of. Bushing was test fit on starter prior to installation. Also compared to old bushing.

2. It does not appear as if it compressed. There appears to be a mark on the inside of the bushing. Don't know if grease or wear mark.

3. Old bushing successfully removed.

4. New bushing looks and feels flush with inside of bell housing hole. Please see below link to pictures.

Thanks

Brett

I hope to at least bench test the starter today.

http://cid-fb012bc3eaa12e65.spaces.live.com/