77 Westy high rpm hesitation

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GreenWesty83
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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by GreenWesty83 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:34 pm

EngineerMaxwell wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:30 pm
This sounds an awful lot like a problem I had with my double relay connections. I found that the female spade connectors in the white plugs going to the double relay were recessed too far and intermittently lost contact at higher RPM's. Removed them from the plugs and slid them individually onto the DR terminals: my headache finally went away. It took me 8k miles, tracing circuits, checking continuity and isolation, and who knows how many hours (days) to determine root cause. I also had a soldered wire connection at a fuel injector resistor *barely* hanging on. I replaced all 4 resistors because everything was so brittle at the soldered terminations (insulation included).

I got to enjoy 65 miles of absolute bliss before I parked it because of a burnt exhaust valve (see another post for that issue).

Best,
Alex
Thanks for the heads up!! This post has given me many areas to inspect. And if nothing else given me some key areas that i need to more thoroughly inspect for general wear and tear!!
I shall put the DR on my list.

Thanks!
1977 Sage Westy
1968 Blue Bug

GreenWesty83
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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by GreenWesty83 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:37 pm

Just a heads up on something I found recently. Per an earlier post, I had a quick minute to pull out spark plugs on cylinders 3 and 4 to just check the plugs for cracked ceramic. Before putting them back in I pulled out the Bentley to double check the gap. Both plugs were gaped incorrectly for FI engines per the Bentley, which states a .028" gap for FI engines. Both were at .025" - .026". Would this incorrect gap contribute in any way? Just wanted to report my findings. I am pulling all plugs and re-gaping them.

Thanks!
1977 Sage Westy
1968 Blue Bug

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:53 am

GreenWesty83 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:37 pm
Just a heads up on something I found recently. Per an earlier post, I had a quick minute to pull out spark plugs on cylinders 3 and 4 to just check the plugs for cracked ceramic. Before putting them back in I pulled out the Bentley to double check the gap. Both plugs were gaped incorrectly for FI engines per the Bentley, which states a .028" gap for FI engines. Both were at .025" - .026". Would this incorrect gap contribute in any way? Just wanted to report my findings. I am pulling all plugs and re-gaping them.

Thanks!
Not significant. I set my gaps to .026 as a matter of course, and let the miles slowly open them up to .028.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by GreenWesty83 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:32 pm

Thanks Colin. Yeah I gapped them to the .028 and just test drove it with my fingers crossed. No dice. Still chugging. Again temperature seems to be a factor. Previously it would take a few miles to get to operating temp before the issue appeared. Now with the warmer temps the issue showed up almost immediately on my drive.
Also. I did check the double relay. Plugs were firm and moderately free of significant corrosion. Any way that anyone knows of to clean wire terminals?
1977 Sage Westy
1968 Blue Bug

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:44 pm

GreenWesty83 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:32 pm
Thanks Colin. Yeah I gapped them to the .028 and just test drove it with my fingers crossed. No dice. Still chugging. Again temperature seems to be a factor. Previously it would take a few miles to get to operating temp before the issue appeared. Now with the warmer temps the issue showed up almost immediately on my drive.
Also. I did check the double relay. Plugs were firm and moderately free of significant corrosion. Any way that anyone knows of to clean wire terminals?
I still do not see any results from the wiper nudge test which is a critical determinant of what ails your engine. It is a dynamic test where your engine tells us how it is feeling, it is an incredibly brief and non-invasive test, and it is critical, but we are on page 3 of spark plug gaps and double relay terminals which are not temperature sensitive, but your symptoms as you report them, are. You can have all of that stupid bucking and no power and the world sends you down the rabbit hole of fuel pumps and filters and clogs and whatever, but it could be just a rich condition that is healed by 6 clicks back on the black cog.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by GreenWesty83 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:09 am

WIPER NUDGE TEST RESULTS!! Sorry Colin. Hey that was an externally easy test. I should not have delayed so long.
Results were. During idle while mostly cool, moving the wiper made the engine bog down as if it would die.
The same result when the engine was warm. Moving the wiper counter clockwise made it big down as if we’re going to die. Drove it around. Got it up to speed a few times. Noticed the hesitation again as well while doing so.
Also. After I warmed up the bus for a little bit I drove it on the highway to warm it up more to do wiper test. Upon accelerating instantly noticed the hesitation in third gear. Pulled off the road and the bus actually died. Waited a few seconds and it started right back up.
Sorry again about the delay Colin. Please advise as to what’s next.
1977 Sage Westy
1968 Blue Bug

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:25 am

GreenWesty83 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:09 am
WIPER NUDGE TEST RESULTS!! Sorry Colin. Hey that was an externally easy test. I should not have delayed so long.
Results were. During idle while mostly cool, moving the wiper made the engine bog down as if it would die.
The same result when the engine was warm. Moving the wiper counter clockwise made it big down as if we’re going to die. Drove it around. Got it up to speed a few times. Noticed the hesitation again as well while doing so.
Also. After I warmed up the bus for a little bit I drove it on the highway to warm it up more to do wiper test. Upon accelerating instantly noticed the hesitation in third gear. Pulled off the road and the bus actually died. Waited a few seconds and it started right back up.
Sorry again about the delay Colin. Please advise as to what’s next.
Too rich!
Try 6 clicks of the cog CLOCKWISE, thgen drive. Let me know!
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by GreenWesty83 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:36 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:25 am
GreenWesty83 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:09 am
WIPER NUDGE TEST RESULTS!! Sorry Colin. Hey that was an externally easy test. I should not have delayed so long.
Results were. During idle while mostly cool, moving the wiper made the engine bog down as if it would die.
The same result when the engine was warm. Moving the wiper counter clockwise made it big down as if we’re going to die. Drove it around. Got it up to speed a few times. Noticed the hesitation again as well while doing so.
Also. After I warmed up the bus for a little bit I drove it on the highway to warm it up more to do wiper test. Upon accelerating instantly noticed the hesitation in third gear. Pulled off the road and the bus actually died. Waited a few seconds and it started right back up.
Sorry again about the delay Colin. Please advise as to what’s next.
Too rich!
Try 6 clicks of the cog CLOCKWISE, thgen drive. Let me know!
Colin
I hate to sound ignorant. But I’ve never messed with the cog. How does one adjust it? Looks like a little springy/wire thing kind of holds the teeth and you just use a small screwdriver to move teeth? Each tooth being a click?
1977 Sage Westy
1968 Blue Bug

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:01 pm

GreenWesty83 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:36 am
Amskeptic wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:25 am
GreenWesty83 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:09 am
WIPER NUDGE TEST RESULTS!! Sorry Colin. Hey that was an externally easy test. I should not have delayed so long.
Results were. During idle while mostly cool, moving the wiper made the engine bog down as if it would die.
The same result when the engine was warm. Moving the wiper counter clockwise made it big down as if we’re going to die. Drove it around. Got it up to speed a few times. Noticed the hesitation again as well while doing so.
Also. After I warmed up the bus for a little bit I drove it on the highway to warm it up more to do wiper test. Upon accelerating instantly noticed the hesitation in third gear. Pulled off the road and the bus actually died. Waited a few seconds and it started right back up.
Sorry again about the delay Colin. Please advise as to what’s next.
Too rich!
Try 6 clicks of the cog CLOCKWISE, thgen drive. Let me know!
Colin
I hate to sound ignorant. But I’ve never messed with the cog. How does one adjust it? Looks like a little springy/wire thing kind of holds the teeth and you just use a small screwdriver to move teeth? Each tooth being a click?
Yes. Mark tooth with a dab of paint as well as the housing just under it.
ColinLookingForwardToUpdate
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

GreenWesty83
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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by GreenWesty83 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:34 pm

Ok. I made the adjustment and took on a good 20 min drive. NOTICEABLE IMPROVEMENT!! bucked a little bit right out of the gate, engine was still a little cold. Drove around town to warm up. Got on it and got up to 60 without issue. Typical of the cooler engine still. Drove fine for about 3 min. Turned corner and noticed the hesitation in 3rd gear at around 40mph. The hesitation crept in again in the same manner, HOWEVER, where as before the hesitation was so pronounced I had to back off the throttle and keep the RPMs lower, now, it seems to push through and keep accelerating. So typically high revs in third would hesitate hard, and around 55 in 4th same thing, i would back off throttle and keep RPMs lower and could put along. Now it would push through and allow me to keep going. At 60mph now i feel consistent little blips. I can maintain 60 but you can defiantly feel the little blips. This makes me lean towards fuel starvation Colin, per your question in an earlier post.
Also, it seems to me that the RPMs at idle appear to be higher? I must test with my tach/dwell meter.
Let me know what you think Colin! Thanks
I am also considering the purchase of the LM-2 for testing my mixture. Would this be a worthwhile purchase?
THanks!
1977 Sage Westy
1968 Blue Bug

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Ronin10
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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by Ronin10 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:23 am

GreenWesty83 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:34 pm
I am also considering the purchase of the LM-2 for testing my mixture. Would this be a worthwhile purchase?
I have an LM-2 and when it works it's fabulous, but the device is very cheaply made, not rugged and will sometimes return nonsense AFR numbers without an indication of what's going wrong. At a 1/3 of the price I would consider it worthwhile, but not that the $350+ they're asking. All that said, if you do get a unit, get the tail pipe bung kit and windshield mount with it. That makes it really helpful to work with.
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by GreenWesty83 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:24 pm

Ronin10 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:23 am
GreenWesty83 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:34 pm
I am also considering the purchase of the LM-2 for testing my mixture. Would this be a worthwhile purchase?
I have an LM-2 and when it works it's fabulous, but the device is very cheaply made, not rugged and will sometimes return nonsense AFR numbers without an indication of what's going wrong. At a 1/3 of the price I would consider it worthwhile, but not that the $350+ they're asking. All that said, if you do get a unit, get the tail pipe bung kit and windshield mount with it. That makes it really helpful to work with.
Thanks for the heads up! Are there any other units that are known better quality?
1977 Sage Westy
1968 Blue Bug

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:49 pm

GreenWesty83 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:34 pm
NOTICEABLE IMPROVEMENT!! At 60mph now i feel consistent little blips. I can maintain 60 but you can defiantly feel the little blips.

This makes me lean towards fuel starvation Colin, per your question in an earlier post.
Also, it seems to me that the RPMs at idle appear to be higher.
Let me know what you think Colin! Thanks

Higher idle is because engine is happier. Drop it down with the big screw at the throttle body to 1,050 or slightly lower.

Do another round of leaning, just three clicks clockwise and report back. Let me know if highway hesitation mitigates.

I know you want to go jump on the starvation thang, but look at your own words. We are incrementally sussing this thing out. No jumping yet. We may have to adjust the wiper towards lean, then actually relax the cog.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

GreenWesty83
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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by GreenWesty83 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:52 pm

Alright. I’m keeping at it! Is any re-tuning required after adjusting the AFM?
1977 Sage Westy
1968 Blue Bug

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Re: 77 Westy high rpm hesitation

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:56 pm

GreenWesty83 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:52 pm
Alright. I’m keeping at it! Is any re-tuning required after adjusting the AFM?

No. Tune-ups go from This Step Has An Effect On Subsequent Steps towards This Step Has No Effect.
a) valves ... affect everything
b) breaker point adjustment affects timing
c) timing affects FI/carb settings
d) FI/carb settings affect none of the prior
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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