Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the eng

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Amskeptic
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:39 am

SlowLane wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:You are supposed to use new Schorr washers on the CV bolts when you install the bolts.
I wasn't aware of that requirement. I've always re-used the old ones. Guess I'll be re-thinking that strategy.
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Colin
(I'll let you know when my damn driveshafts fall off because I forgot not to re-use my Schorr washers, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAahahahaaaaaa, these weekend Porsche racers are a HOOT! )
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:32 pm

Ok, some people laugh in the face of oncoming disasters but this is why when you buy a CV kit with the new boots, new Schorr washers, bolts and grease it's all included. For racing as I said we drill the head of the CV bolts and wire all of them so they can't come loose but that's overkill on a bus.

If you are going to do a job, do it right so you can forget about it.
Geoff
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70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by asiab3 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:35 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
SlowLane wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:You are supposed to use new Schorr washers on the CV bolts when you install the bolts.
I wasn't aware of that requirement. I've always re-used the old ones. Guess I'll be re-thinking that strategy.
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa……

aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh. Schorr washers? :pale: The third day of bus ownership, my uncle helped me install new EMPI axles, and he insisted on removing the spreader plate AND using split-ring American lock washers. The setup is four years old now. I'll let you know how it lasts over the next thirty years…… :pirate:

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145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:03 pm

Try that logic when rebuilding your engine. Leave out half the parts and see how long it runs......BBBbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I am just trying to give a little honest to god technical help but if this is now the backyard hack forum excuse me.......
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by asiab3 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:14 pm

Bleyseng wrote:Try that logic when rebuilding your engine. Leave out half the parts and see how long it runs......BBBbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I am just trying to give a little honest to god technical help but if this is now the backyard hack forum excuse me.......
I didn't mean to poke fun at honest help. That's never my intention.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by SlowLane » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:54 am

THall wrote:
SlowLane wrote:
I haven't checked the usual suspects like Grainger or McMaster-Carr.
McMaster - packs of 100 for $11.71

http://www.mcmaster.com/#93501a030/=10b292o

The bag they came in did say Schnorr even though it doesn't say so on the McMaster ordering info.
Sweet! Thanks for the tip.

When I replaced my CV joints last spring with a set of Lobros from Van-Cafe, they came with new bolts, but not new washers. I didn't think twice about this, because, as I said, I thought it was accepted practice to re-use them. I did have one missing, and will need to address that.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by wcfvw69 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:26 pm

When I read threads about drive axles coming loose, it really makes me wonder if whoever installed them forgot to torque them correctly? I'm using used, original VW washers on mine axles as well. I torque them between 25-30 ft lbs. I usually recheck them a thousand miles later and have never had one bolt loosen up.

Clearly, it would be best to use new schoor washers but I think many folks reuse the original ones w/out problems.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by kreemoweet » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:44 pm

An interesting tidbit regarding those ever-controversial Schnorr washers, is that the late model Type 1 Bentley manual instructs
to toss those things in the trash, and not use any sort of washer at all under the bolt-head. Evidently VW also put out a 1-mm shorter
CVJ bolt to compensate, at the same time.

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by asiab3 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:47 pm

kreemoweet wrote:An interesting tidbit regarding those ever-controversial Schnorr washers, is that the late model Type 1 Bentley manual instructs
to toss those things in the trash, and not use any sort of washer at all under the bolt-head. Evidently VW also put out a 1-mm shorter
CVJ bolt to compensate, at the same time.
I've never heard this. (I only have the two earlier T1 Bentleys.) Could you photo this note for the readership? I've only ever heard of the removal of the washer under the CV itself.
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by SlowLane » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:59 pm

asiab3 wrote:
kreemoweet wrote:An interesting tidbit regarding those ever-controversial Schnorr washers, is that the late model Type 1 Bentley manual instructs
to toss those things in the trash, and not use any sort of washer at all under the bolt-head. Evidently VW also put out a 1-mm shorter
CVJ bolt to compensate, at the same time.
I've never heard this. (I only have the two earlier T1 Bentleys.) Could you photo this note for the readership? I've only ever heard of the removal of the washer under the CV itself.
My 1979 edition of the Type 1 Bentley has the following caption for Figure 3-4 on page 6 of the Transmission and Rear Axle chapter:
Type 1 Bentley wrote:Driveshaft and constant velocity joint components. The hose clamps, pinch clamps, cap and lockwashers are no longer used (see text).
However, the text it refers to makes no mention of the lockwasher deletion. On the next page:
Type 1 Bentley wrote:NOTE - As of July 1972, the hose clamps, pinch-clamps, and separate cap and boot were discontinued. Instead, the driveshaft was given an additional ridge to secure the small end of the boot. The cap has been combined with the boot for a more effective seal. The new cap and boot combination can be installed on earlier models. The pinch clamp must be retained unless the new-type driveshafts are installed.
Nothing there abut tossing lockwashers in the trash.

I've also been mulling over these Schnorr washers. I don't think they were original equipment. Every CV lock washer i've ever seen was flat, not conical or dished like the Schnorrs. Unless the Schnorrs permanently flatten out when you torque them down? Is that the case? It doesn't seem likely.

So my question now is: if the original washers always were flat, and we are now replacing them with Schnorrs, should we be torquing the Schnorrs down more than the original washers in order to compensate for the extra resistance of the dish?
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by kreemoweet » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:38 pm

"Have been discontinued" is just another way of saying "have been deleted". I'll admit that "throwing them in the trash" is my personal, and quite justified,
I believe, interpretation.

Also, second-to-last paragraph of Section 3.1, describing installation of CVJ: "Insert the socket head screws without any lockwashers. . . . The factory-installed
lockwashers have been discontinued and are unnecessary. . . . ".

The Schnorr washers installed at the factory were dished (otherwise they wouldn't be Schnorr washers, eh?) and do indeed flatten out after use, just like
split-ring washers do. That's why they say never to reuse them. I know not what others may do with their old, used-up Schnorr washers, but mine go in the trash.

Of course, this all pertains, ostensibly, to Type 1 vehicles. Any relevance to Type 2's remains Yet Another Bentley Mystery, and an item for Endless Speculation.

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by SlowLane » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:00 am

Ah, I see. You're right. Right there at the end of chapter 3.1.

Seems to be specific to type 1s, though. The Vanagon Bentley clearly shows the washers in the assembly diagram, and is annoyingly silent on the subject of re-use, replacement or omission. Not that that means anything conclusive. The Vanagon Bentley is a curious hodge-podge of useful detail and vague hand-waving, with confusing diagrams lifted from other sources. The drawings of the CV joints are a prime example. They are obviously line drawings derived faithfully from the excellent photos in the type 1 book. But there are differences between the type 1 CVs and the bus/ vanagon CVs that make you scratch your head if you are comparing what you have in your hand with what is in the manual.

As far as dished from the factory or not, can you find any reference to these washers specifically as "Schnorr" washers from the factory manuals? The adoption of the dished Schnorrs could be a recent innovation.

Whatever. It seems there is enough empirical evidence that re-using the factory washers rarely causes catastrophic failure.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by kreemoweet » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:05 pm

SlowLane wrote: ... can you find any reference ...
My copy of the factory Type 2 parts list refers to those washers as "spring washers", N 15 371 1, which they wouldn't be if they were flat. I've
also seen them referred to as "lock washers" in some VW parts lists.

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by SlowLane » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:44 pm

kreemoweet wrote:
SlowLane wrote: ... can you find any reference ...
My copy of the factory Type 2 parts list refers to those washers as "spring washers", N 15 371 1, which they wouldn't be if they were flat. I've also seen them referred to as "lock washers" in some VW parts lists.
Okay, cool. "spring washers" I can accept to mean dished.
"Lock washer" can refer to the radial teeth on the washers, flat or dished.

You would think though, that with Germans being German, there would be some detailed instructions on what the orientation of the dish should be when installed.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by dingo » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:16 pm

I just like saying ' Schnorrr'...it sounds very germanic and important..and a good one to one-up on unsuspecting bus pilots..'Youre not running Schnorrr washers ? really ?!!"
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