Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the eng

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Ronin10
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Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the eng

Post by Ronin10 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:58 pm

Greta is dead! Greta is dead! Dear god, please don't let Greta be dead.

Hysterics out of the way, something is seriously effed up in my engine...yesterday, I drove about 200 miles around the Puget Sound area, mostly freeway driving with no issues. This morning, about 3 miles from my house, while accelerating away from a stop sign. A massive clanging sound emerged from engine bay. The only thing I knew upon getting out of the bus, was that the noise was proportional to RPM.

I let it idle, while my son added RPM while I interrogated things. I was under a time crunch so I was really just trying to determine if this was a simple fix or something I should just limp back to home and address later. As I poked around, the worst of the sound seemed to be coming from the 1/2 side and more specifically, the alternator. I judged I could make it home so we drove it back. There was no appreciable loss in power or performance, just an ungodly noise.

Later today, I got back home and started investigating a bit. I took the belt off and still the engine clanged. The sound is a lot like a loose tin that vibrates with engine RPM. So i checked for loose tins. Nothing. After that, I started - cringe - thinking internal to the engine, pulled off the 1/2 valve cover and was going to check the valves, but as soon as I tried to rotate the engine I had about 90 degrees of smooth rotation before the painful, metal-on-metal like scraping.

I stopped there, cried a bit, then came to post here hoping to get the brain trust rolling. Please tell me that this could be something not involving a rebuild.
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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Ronin10
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Ronin10 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:02 pm

I guess the diagnosis comes upon engine removal. I decided to take a couple quick videos to let you guys hear the sound. First up was a manual rotation:
https://youtu.be/xQqSf_1YOAI

Then a quickie 10 second run:
https://youtu.be/Hz74Dt_HnCw

That abrupt end? That was the engine seizing.
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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Amskeptic
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:25 pm

Ronin10 wrote:I guess the diagnosis comes upon engine removal. I decided to take a couple quick videos to let you guys hear the sound. First up was a manual rotation:
https://youtu.be/xQqSf_1YOAI

Then a quickie 10 second run:
https://youtu.be/Hz74Dt_HnCw

That abrupt end? That was the engine seizing.
"This video is private" ??

Engine is now locked up?

You took off the alternator belt, a good first step in getting rid of minor possible causes, you checked your tins (though they are a pretty light sound, "tinny" as it were), you investigated the rocker assemblies, good again, but the minute you have arrived at internal causes, you need to shut it down.
I cannot stress enough, too late in this case, not to push through. This goes for unexplained power loss, and in the case of noise or any other anomaly, shut it down.

There is NO diagnostic value in trying to tease out internal noises you cannot see.
Can you give us a reminder run-down of this engine's history and current runtime/mileage?

It could still be simple and stupid, though now with the possibility of damage.

Is there end play at the pulley? Has the engine loosened from the bell housing??
Pressure plate/flywheel gone loose . . . ?
Come on kid, help yer dad out.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 116,898 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 84,465 miles

Jivermo
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Jivermo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:28 pm

Rough deal. Could not play video...says video is private.

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Ronin10
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Ronin10 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:56 pm

Unlocked the videos. Sorry, haven't posted to YouTube in a long time.

I wasn't completely sure that the problem was internal hence me trying to take the quickie videos and hoping for a second opinion that would lead me elsewhere.

There is hope though...I was jacking up the bus to prep for dropping the engine. As I did so, the engine "unwrapped" once the wheels were off the ground. It did so with that grinding noise.

I'll take a look at your questions tonight, Colin, then report back.
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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wcfvw69
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by wcfvw69 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:12 pm

Let's hope it's something silly that is causing that noise that doesn't require an engine tear down. Listening to the video's, it sounded like something rubbing external like the fan. I'm not up on type 4 engines but the noise did sound external to me.

It's a good thing "Skills" from The Samba isn't a participant on this site. He'd be screaming "Subaru it"!
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Ronin10
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Ronin10 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:08 pm

Oh! The history...

The engine was rebuilt at 40,425 on the odometer in the winter of 2012/2013 with carbs. It only ran for a short while before it seized up as well due to oil starvation at the fan end main bearing. I was too busy to keep working it, so I took it to Oval's in Federal Way, WA. They re-rebuilt it to it's current state. It now has 55,100 miles on it.

It's driving history is mostly in-town driving to and from work with occasional freeway based road trips. Idle was still crappy, but drove great on the highway. CHTs were generally on the high end. Oil consumption didn't seem bad, on norm with what VW specifies in the owner's manual. I had just adjusted the valves, no apparent changes since my last adjustment.

I think I'll take the chance to install a stock cam since I'm in there. Get rid of this 107i.
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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Amskeptic
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:35 pm

Ronin10 wrote:Unlocked the videos. Sorry, haven't posted to YouTube in a long time.

I wasn't completely sure that the problem was internal hence me trying to take the quickie videos and hoping for a second opinion that would lead me elsewhere.

There is hope though...I was jacking up the bus to prep for dropping the engine. As I did so, the engine "unwrapped" once the wheels were off the ground. It did so with that grinding noise.

I'll take a look at your questions tonight, Colin, then report back.
Unlocked with wheels off the ground in neutral, or in gear, ebrake on or off? Curiouser and curiouser.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 116,898 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 84,465 miles

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Ronin10
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Ronin10 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:26 pm

No discernible end play whatsoever at pulley end. Engine to trans bolts were all nicely torqued down.

Unlocked with e-brake definitely on. In gear? Thought I was in neutral since that how I was running it when filming, but I guess I can't say for certain.

I did a bunch of prep tonight to drop the engine. Got everything on top of the engine disconnected and removed. Tomorrow night should be everything underneath and the drop itself.
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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Amskeptic
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:24 am

Ronin10 wrote: I did a bunch of prep tonight to drop the engine.
STOP! I finally heard the engine.
Next step. Pull the fan.
a) remove rear tins,
b) remove three 13mm fan bolts (stick in 4th gear to hold the engine), not the center one,
c) rotate engine with 13mm socket on the center bolt . . . if free and quiet,
d) start engine (you have an easy three minutes, but it will only take a second to ascertain),
e) report back.
Colin
(p.s. how did my putty knife end up in your fan housing?)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 116,898 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 84,465 miles

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Bleyseng
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:37 am

Yes, it sounds like something behind the fan is rubbing/scraping. Pull the fan.
If you want I can swing by after 4PM as I live close by.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Ronin10
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Ronin10 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:40 am

Tonight is a mixed bag of time so sit tight. If I get to the point where the engine pull seems like the last option, I'll definitely be glad to have you over before doing so as a second, in-person opinion would be worth it. Stay tuned and thanks for the offer of help!
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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sped372
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by sped372 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:34 pm

I hope it's something simple! Sounds like a rod on my poor quality phone speaker. :-(
1971 Karmann Ghia - 1600 DP
1984 Westfalia - 1.9 WBX

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Ronin10
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Ronin10 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:55 pm

Potentially good news. Looks like it was the fan grinding against the fan shroud. I have to go do some Christmas shopping shortly, but here's my current state:
Image

I pulled the fan and discovered scoring on the hidden (forward) surface and on a portion of the perimeter of the pulley forward of the fins. The scoring in the hidden face was due to one if the four fan shroud mounting bolts protruding (the oneat the 7:00 position). I intend to dremel that one down. Some photos of the damage:ImageImage
ImageImage

I don't know if the fan shroud damage shows up in these photos but the wear starts at the 11:00 position and goes to the 4:00 position.
ImageImageImageImage.

Fan shroud bolts are tight, so what could be chasing the fan to be out of alignment?
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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Bleyseng
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:10 pm

Looks like the bottom left fan housing stud is too long and hitting the back of the fan. For out of balance on the fan, look for a missing fan blade. Is the stud just backing out? Re-install it with Loctite Blue thread locking compound to lock it in place.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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