@#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

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davebrossi
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@#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by davebrossi » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:18 am

Arrrgggggppfft! :angryfire: I think my Van overheard me talking about putting it on the market. This morning while driving to work, I was heading to a traffic circle and engaging in my usual pre-stop behavior (pop clutch, shift into neutral, apply brakes in a gradual fashion, while clutch is depressed, downshift in preparation for take off) when BAM! :bom: a shudder best described as the sort you get when dropping the clutch out completely. Suddenly I can't engage 1st, 2nd, or any gear while the vehicle is rolling.

At stop I find I can slot it into gear and still feather the clutch out and go, but the van'll be damned if it will allow me to change gears on the move. Getting out of gear is easy (I had a porsche eat it's own transaxle a year ago, I know that part always is) but unless you're at a stop or time it just right, no gears. :pale:

I would think that if it were the clutch I wouldn't have any drive, nor would I be able to slot it into gear at a stop and not stall the engine with the clutch pedal depressed (I freely admit and accept I'm wrong in my thinking there) so would this be another break somewhere? FWIW, the master cylinder assembly looks almost brand new (very shiny, fluid levels are fine) and as I really want to sell a van that is functional. I need to fix this. I also notice the clutch pedal seems 'light' and much easier to depress meaning I'm likely free of whatever constraints put mechanical resistance on it. Hopefully dropping the transaxle on a van isn't as difficult as a Boxster S, while the learning curve is steep on one and it's easy the second (or third and fourth times around :geek: ) it was a long cold winter while I was learning. :study:

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Re: @#$@#$@# Transmission!

Post by davebrossi » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:21 am

for the record; once I learned the 'new order' of things I've no plans on taking the van anywhere but the garage. Second gear, while down on power at low speeds when feathered correctly (it's still letting me feather) works for town driving provided I'm not behind someone for whom the break is naturally where their left foot resides (which was sadly the cast on the last 100 feet this morning.)

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jcbrock
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Re: @#$@#$@# Transmission!

Post by jcbrock » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:17 am

It doesn't sound like the clutch to me, since it engages and disengages. That's all the clutch does. I wouldn't do too much of slipping it to start in second though, it's really hard on the clutch disk.

The fact you can shift when stopped but not when rolling says to me something in a syncro, but other weird stuff can happen. I had a Datsun bearing ball retainer/spacer ring have a rivet break and the retainer ring curl out between two gears. It made a weird noise in reverse and I couldn't get it into second because that was where the retainer ring was rubbing. Anyway, it does sound like a transmission drop is in your near future. I like pulling the engine and transmission together. I just think it isn't any more work than pulling one, and it is easier to get them apart on the floor.
'76 Type II Station Wagon - in the family since new!
Corvallis, OR

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Amskeptic
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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:59 am

davebrossi wrote:Arrrgggggppfft! :angryfire: I think my Van overheard me talking about putting it on the market. This morning while driving to work, I was heading to a traffic circle and engaging in my usual pre-stop behavior (pop clutch, shift into neutral, apply brakes in a gradual fashion, while clutch is depressed, downshift in preparation for take off) when BAM! :bom: a shudder best described as the sort you get when dropping the clutch out completely. Suddenly I can't engage 1st, 2nd, or any gear while the vehicle is rolling.

At stop I find I can slot it into gear and still feather the clutch out and go, but the van'll be damned if it will allow me to change gears on the move. Getting out of gear is easy (I had a porsche eat it's own transaxle a year ago, I know that part always is) but unless you're at a stop or time it just right, no gears. :pale:

I would think that if it were the clutch I wouldn't have any drive, nor would I be able to slot it into gear at a stop and not stall the engine with the clutch pedal depressed (I freely admit and accept I'm wrong in my thinking there) so would this be another break somewhere? FWIW, the master cylinder assembly looks almost brand new (very shiny, fluid levels are fine) and as I really want to sell a van that is functional. I need to fix this. I also notice the clutch pedal seems 'light' and much easier to depress meaning I'm likely free of whatever constraints put mechanical resistance on it. Hopefully dropping the transaxle on a van isn't as difficult as a Boxster S, while the learning curve is steep on one and it's easy the second (or third and fourth times around :geek: ) it was a long cold winter while I was learning. :study:
a) check brake fluid reservoir for perfectly topped-off level. If low, exercise clutch several times when done.

b) have assistant apply clutch pedal while you look at the slave cylinder lever for full travel against operating arm. be on the look-out for a loose bracket. if limited travel, bleed system.

c) if all checks out, you have internal issues, broken operating fork? collapsed pressure plate? etc.

d) do not assume that it is not the clutch because you manage to catch gears. Your synchronizers may be real troupers here.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by davebrossi » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:58 pm

An update (and tie in I suspect to another post I made!) The van is back! :cheers: In what I'm told is an extremely rare thing to happen, apparently when I depressed the clutch peddle the clutch disc went "that's it, I'm out of here! :bom:" and broke into multiple pieces. Since I'm limited in my headspace in the garage (meaning I can't get the van high enough off the ground to drop everything myself) I entrusted the work to a local shop with a good reputation. I also made myself a nuisance by showing up and inspecting things while they had the engine and transmission dropped :salute: In talking to the mechanic, he mentioned the RMS was leaking quite badly so I had them replace it while they were in there. But (and here's where it ties in) now I'm fairly certain the crankcase pressure is too high, causing my dipstick issue and the RMS failure to get worse. I know the EGR valve is one thing to suspect, I'm not getting smoke from worn rings, any ideas? I'm overjoyed to be back to puttering down the road, believe me, I just want to make sure I keep getting to do so. :bounce:

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Amskeptic
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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:31 am

davebrossi wrote:An update (and tie in I suspect to another post I made!) The van is back! :cheers: In what I'm told is an extremely rare thing to happen, apparently when I depressed the clutch peddle the clutch disc went "that's it, I'm out of here! :bom:" and broke into multiple pieces. Since I'm limited in my headspace in the garage (meaning I can't get the van high enough off the ground to drop everything myself) I entrusted the work to a local shop with a good reputation. I also made myself a nuisance by showing up and inspecting things while they had the engine and transmission dropped :salute: In talking to the mechanic, he mentioned the RMS was leaking quite badly so I had them replace it while they were in there. But (and here's where it ties in) now I'm fairly certain the crankcase pressure is too high, causing my dipstick issue and the RMS failure to get worse. I know the EGR valve is one thing to suspect, I'm not getting smoke from worn rings, any ideas? I'm overjoyed to be back to puttering down the road, believe me, I just want to make sure I keep getting to do so. :bounce:
What's the RMS?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by davebrossi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:01 am

Rear main seal. Which given my limited knowledge on air cooled engines and your question makes me wonder if there actually is one in which case their mention of replacing it is suspect. Add to that the fact that the van wouldn't start this morning, I found they left the flapper box cables disconnected and the digitizer bypassed and I'm rather upset with them right now...

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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by davebrossi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:57 am

Update Update: because life is worth having a sense of humor for... :geek:

Below I have managed secretly approach from a distance and capture for the very first time on film, an image of my elusive Vanagon in its native habitat :sunny:
Vanagon.JPG
Vanagon.JPG (9.73 KiB) Viewed 9408 times
:thumbleft:

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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by davebrossi » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:31 am

Update Update Update: their bypass of the digital idler was in error; the female leads connector had a bad pin. Fixed and happy as a lark with my rolling brick back on the road! :-D

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Amskeptic
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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:35 am

davebrossi wrote:Update Update: because life is worth having a sense of humor for... :geek:

Below I have managed secretly approach from a distance and capture for the very first time on film, an image of my elusive Vanagon in its native habitat :sunny:
Vanagon.JPG
:thumbleft:
Ouch! Although it does look proud up there.

Just read your update. Congratulations! You need an Itinerant Air-Cooled visit. You are your own best mechanic, yes, you are.

The "flywheel seal" is the front main seal.
The "fan seal" is the rear main seal.
Let's not abbreviate here. Although I just did . . . . :scratch:
LET US NOT abbreviate here, then the readership (all seven of us) will know what we are talking about.
Colin :geek:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

davebrossi
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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by davebrossi » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:49 am

My Dad's a long time Porsche guy and I continually drive him nuts with the fact that I keep getting my directions backwards when it comes to the Vanagon engine. I'll need to pick their brains next time I stop in, if it was the fan seal they changed I'd be much happier as I've been suspicious of it from the start. As for wrench turning, I am limited only by the headroom in my garage with less than two inches of lift. If I can complete all my work in under 12 hours however, they'd let me work in the apartment parking area. Having never dropped a Vanagon engine or transaxle, and with my only experience in such work being on a Boxster which took me several days the first time around, I'm leery of my Jack Baur time management skills.

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asiab3
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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by asiab3 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:22 am

davebrossi wrote:My Dad's a long time Porsche guy and I continually drive him nuts with the fact that I keep getting my directions backwards when it comes to the Vanagon engine. I'll need to pick their brains next time I stop in, if it was the fan seal they changed I'd be much happier as I've been suspicious of it from the start. As for wrench turning, I am limited only by the headroom in my garage with less than two inches of lift. If I can complete all my work in under 12 hours however, they'd let me work in the apartment parking area. Having never dropped a Vanagon engine or transaxle, and with my only experience in such work being on a Boxster which took me several days the first time around, I'm leery of my Jack Baur time management skills.
Can you drop the engine outside then bring it in while the van stays inconspicuously parked outside? My first engine pull was made delightful by having the engine and all parts in my living room while the bus stayed right outside. That way I could comfortably read up for confidence and photo reference, work on it as I pleased without having to haul all my tools outside then back in, and there was no time crunch. I'd highly recommend it. Plus, next time your friends give you a hard time for the stains on your clothes, just show them the picture of the engine on the rental floor! :blackeye:

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by davebrossi » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:09 am

I really am slowly moving towards that Robbie, and believe me, nothing would make me happier than spending a saturday night watching Netflix in my easy chair...with the entire engine on a rotating stand in the family room area. But in all honesty I've never been able to come up with a "how to protect the carpet from the inevitable grease stains, oil, blood from required skin sacrifices to sharp edges" beyond plastic sheeting which in my OCD mind is heresy... and likely to tear under the weight. I've started investigating if short term shop rentals exist, but have been mostly laughed off the phone when I specify what I'm looking for.

On the plus side I'm at least to the point where I'm the 'neighbor that always kept to himself" so no one would be surprised to visit and find an engine and transmission dismantled on the kitchen floor!

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Amskeptic
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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:06 pm

davebrossi wrote:I really am slowly moving towards that Robbie, and believe me, nothing would make me happier than spending a saturday night watching Netflix in my easy chair...with the entire engine on a rotating stand in the family room area. But in all honesty I've never been able to come up with a "how to protect the carpet from the inevitable grease stains, oil, blood from required skin sacrifices to sharp edges" beyond plastic sheeting which in my OCD mind is heresy... and likely to tear under the weight. I've started investigating if short term shop rentals exist, but have been mostly laughed off the phone when I specify what I'm looking for.

On the plus side I'm at least to the point where I'm the 'neighbor that always kept to himself" so no one would be surprised to visit and find an engine and transmission dismantled on the kitchen floor!
Here's my engine in the dining room circa 2002:

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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asiab3
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Re: @#$@ Vanagon Transmission!

Post by asiab3 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:16 pm

Ay that one's a beauty.

Dave, will your complex let you leave the van in an outside parking spot without an engine? And by that I mean, will they let you park it ther for a while without it moving? (They don't have to know it doesn't have an engine...)

If you can drive a stick shift, you can pull an engine in under 10 hours and have it on buckets in your garage. Same thing on the reinstall, just read up and ask questions beforehand. Keep the engine in the garage (if the living room is off limits) and learn at your own pace. Three years ago I took two weeks to change the pressure plate once the engine was dropped. This year I had it pulled and back in (with an end play adjustment) in the same day. You'll feel like a pro the second you drive away afterward.

Ahhhh living in a rental with tile... This filthy combination of parts from eight countries hauled my carcass across a few states, and to more big life moments than I can remember before I even cleaned it. Your engine will thank you, just like mine.

Image
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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