Hydraulic Valve Adjustment and Associated Noise - kinda long

[Strop]

In case anyone gives a rat's ass...

I took lifter 3 out and disassembled it. Now keep in mind it is only 9 months old so I was not expecting anything bad. I cleaned it and blew some air thru the check valve, and bled it and reinstalled it. Then I did the test again. The lifter compressed within about 5 minutes.

So I went and readjusted bot of the number 3 valves to 2 turns. The vacuum did not deteriorate, but I still gotta check the compression.

more to come

Just checked number 3:

turned both in at TDC after 5 minutes or so the "inside" valve expanded and I could finger loosen the adjuster screw

The "outside" valve did nothing and is still tight.

So, the spring is shot or my new lifter is clogged, or the pushrod has slipped.

What else could it be?

Colin,

What about the lifter being pumped up and solid? How would it compress instead of the valve moving? Does it somehow still compress when it is solid?

thx

That is just it. If the lifter refuses to compress in let's say 5 minutes, it will burn up your valve in the engine. The valve train expands over the course of five minutes as the engine warms up, the lifter has to give or the valve won't close. The only way to know what is going on is to test it. At TDC, turn in the screw until you see the valve open. Come back in 10 minutes and the valve had best be closed. Then release the screw quickly until you have a little clack. Wait another 5 minutes. The clack had best be gone. The plunger must be mobile as we play with the screw. The lifter only needs to be solid when engine oil pressure is acting on it, i.e. the engine is running.
Colin

[Amskeptic]

The lifter compressed within about 5 minutes.
readjusted both of the number 3 valves to 2 turns.
The vacuum did not deteriorate,
but I still gotta check the compression.
more to come

We await with bated breath. Good for you, diving right in to get to the bottom of it.
Colin

[Strop]

The lifter compressed within about 5 minutes.
readjusted both of the number 3 valves to 2 turns.
The vacuum did not deteriorate,
but I still gotta check the compression.
more to come

We await with bated breath. Good for you, diving right in to get to the bottom of it.
Colin

Yeah I bet....

I will say that the Hydraulic lifter test (tightening/loosening and waiting to see if valve compresses) is very good and is just plain common sense. I think that this is something that many folks should perform when experiencing any type of hydro lifter issue. At least it gives a good starting point for further diagnosis.

Good call!

[Strop]

Here is the latest update:

Checked compression tonight
1-30
2-135
3-90
4-135

I am stumped now. Thought the lifters were working correctly in that they are compressing-expanding per the test Colin provided me. However for some reason numbers 1 and 3 do not seem to compress enough to let the valves close completely resulting in the shit compression readings. So tonite I readjusted the 1 and 3 valves back to zero lash and wala good compression better power and sounds like a bag -o- marbles. Also. 17-18 lbs manifold vacuum at cold idle.

So, actually the lifters are not working correctly, as after about 5 minutes the adjusters are definitely loose, but they are not at zero lash - so I guess they are still holding the valves open enough to fubar the compression.


When I had the valves adjusted the 2 turns in it sure sounded nice, but had poor power and ran hot. Thats what happens when the ol valves don't seat...

Somehow I gotta find the happy medium here. Unless there is some other issue that I cant figure out.

Am I risking anything except blown lifters running it this way for a while? Figured I would give it a couple hundred miles like this and then see what happens if the turn the adjusters in another 1/4 turn or so.

Time to go burn one I think..... Had enough of this fun for one night.

[Amskeptic]

I am stumped now. Thought the lifters were working correctly in that they are compressing-expanding per the test Colin provided me. However for some reason numbers 1 and 3 do not seem to compress enough to let the valves close completely resulting in the shit compression readings.

Follow closely here. You MUST confirm that each lifter has expanded all the way to the circlip before you can count your preload turns down.
If you release an adjusting screw and get that ticky clearance you're looking for, but the plunger is stuck only halfway up the bore, then your count will bottom the lifter and open the valve, voila no compression.

Now here is the other side of the same continuum. You know that the lifter must adjust to the valve train expansion/contraction in a matter of minutes as the engine warms up. So, let's say you have confirmed that the lifter really really really did expand to the circlip and you counted 1 1/2 turns down and the valve even opened as you turned the screw. You may assume that the lifter should allow the valve to "bleed" close as you prepare the valve cover gasket and put the bale on and put the tools away and wash your hands over the next ten minutes and start the engine. If you have open valves after all that time, that thar is a lifter that is not moving fast enough to keep up with the engine's expansion and contraction. Replace it. This should not be such a headache.
Colin

[Strop]

I am stumped now. Thought the lifters were working correctly in that they are compressing-expanding per the test Colin provided me. However for some reason numbers 1 and 3 do not seem to compress enough to let the valves close completely resulting in the shit compression readings.

Follow closely here. You MUST confirm that each lifter has expanded all the way to the circlip before you can count your preload turns down.
If you release an adjusting screw and get that ticky clearance you're looking for, but the plunger is stuck only halfway up the bore, then your count will bottom the lifter and open the valve, voila no compression.

Now here is the other side of the same continuum. You know that the lifter must adjust to the valve train expansion/contraction in a matter of minutes as the engine warms up. So, let's say you have confirmed that the lifter really really really did expand to the circlip and you counted 1 1/2 turns down and the valve even opened as you turned the screw. You may assume that the lifter should allow the valve to "bleed" close as you prepare the valve cover gasket and put the bale on and put the tools away and wash your hands over the next ten minutes and start the engine. If you have open valves after all that time, that thar is a lifter that is not moving fast enough to keep up with the engine's expansion and contraction. Replace it. This should not be such a headache.
Colin

It sure should not be such a headache.... I completely understand the logic here. Maybe the lifters are bad, however, my gut feeling is that they are not as they are brand new with only 1000 miles on them.

Strange thing is... When I set the valves to zero and then start the van, it sounds fine for about 2 or 3 minutes then starts rattling. Wouldn't it seem like the opposite would occur because as the engine heats up and expands any gap would only get tighter not looser.

Obviously the rattling is not the lifters having air in them, it is the valve train making the noise - which can't be too good.

Regardless...I am going to buy 4 new lifters and put them in and see what happens....just seems odd that brand new ones would be crap.

Thanks for your assistance with this and taking the time to assist me with this problem. I just want to get this damn thing running and in a condition where I feel comfortable......

[IFBwax]

When you set the lifters correctly 1 1/2 turns.. how far did you drive with them like that?

Where they making a ticking noise?

[Strop]

When you set the lifters correctly 1 1/2 turns.. how far did you drive with them like that?

Where they making a ticking noise?

I drove about 20 miles with them like that and the engine sounded great - no ticking whatsoever.

[vwlover77]

Wow, this sure is weird. Maybe I can drive up some evening this coming week to have a look at what's going on and we can both scratch our heads.

I would only buy one lifter for starters until you figure out what's going on. Those lifters should not be bad if they are new, and are the better design with the metering disk instead of ball (which we now know they are!)

[Amskeptic]

Strange thing is... When I set the valves to zero and then start the van, it sounds fine for about 2 or 3 minutes then starts rattling. Wouldn't it seem like the opposite would occur because as the engine heats up and expands any gap would only get tighter not looser.

Actually, this is kind of interesting. In the old days, John Muir warned against warm engine valve adjusting (something the dealers were trying to get away with to move cars through the service bays) because you would burn up your engine. But why, you ask, if the clearances close as the engine warms up, you'd only be increasing your safety margin if you adjusted the valves as the clearances were beginning to close as the engine warmed up, wouldn't you? Ah but no. During the initial few minutes of warm up, the aluminum in the head between the seat and the rocker stands, warms up the fastest amongst the valve stem and pushrod growth, giving you a false clearance. On the cooling side of the curve, like at the dealer, the steel valve stem cools more slowly than the aluminum pushrod giving you another moment of false clearance that, if you adjusted your valves to .006" during that window, would give you a dangerously thin margin at operating temps.
For you and your hydraulic lifter, I would expect a 0 lash cold to give you a clatter during the warm up relay race between the valve stem, push rod, and head dimension between the valve seat and rocker stand support.
Colin Fun With VW's is Never-Ending

[spiffy]

This might be way off the mark but are all your push rods the same length?

Maybe try a set of adjustable rods or have some cut to fit?

Or you could shim the rocker arm studs. I had to do that (er Colin had to do that) when I had both valve seats on #3 sink into the head.

[Strop]

This might be way off the mark but are all your push rods the same length?

Maybe try a set of adjustable rods or have some cut to fit?

Or you could shim the rocker arm studs. I had to do that (er Colin had to do that) when I had both valve seats on #3 sink into the head.

Hell with all of it. With numbers 1 and 3 set to zero lash on the hydraulic lifters my compression is good, vacuum is good, power is good, mpg is decent and CHT are acceptable.

Just makes a lot of valve train noise and the lifter circlips will probably blow out one of these days.

I am just going to live with it like it is - maybe just to waste a few bucks I will put a new lifter in and see what effect it has.

Tired of screwing around with it - just gonna drive it now.

[vwlover77]

Maybe you can drive it a while, then sneak in an eighth of a turn on the adjusters in question (don't back them out), and repeat until they are at least one turn in...

[Strop]

Maybe you can drive it a while, then sneak in an eighth of a turn on the adjusters in question (don't back them out), and repeat until they are at least one turn in...

that is what we will do...

[Strop]

This might be way off the mark but are all your push rods the same length?

Maybe try a set of adjustable rods or have some cut to fit?

Or you could shim the rocker arm studs. I had to do that (er Colin had to do that) when I had both valve seats on #3 sink into the head.

Were there different rod lengths made? I know that the ones in there are the steel ones and not aluminum.