81 Vanagon, oil loss.....

[vanagonvw]

Hi all,

New to the forum. Was referred by another member, that maybe some more useful info could be found here.

My 81 has just under 200K on it. All original engine. I have owned it since 89, and put more than half that mileage on it, so I am confident that although it has been used, it has not been abused.

My question deals with oil consumption. Sometimes, I use a qt in a hundred miles, and other times, I go four hundred without a whole quart being used. My favorite trips are all pretty much 800-1000 round trip, and will use up to five quarts of oil, more or less. Sometimes, I can go half the trip on a quart, and then I lose a lot on the second half. Uses lots of oil, but is erratic.

I did a compression test last year. Engine warm, throttle open, and FI turned off. Came back between 95, and 115 on all holes, so I am pleased that it is dying rather evenly

Never put any oil in the holes to see what it does to the test results, nor have I done a leakdown. I am in "wondering what to do" mode so those things are on my list.

The plugs are text book perfect color. No sign of any oil.

It does not leak oil, at all, either sitting for a long time, or after an extended run. It used to leak, a lot but I had all that taken care of a long time ago.

There is not an excessive amount of oil on the bottom of the engine, nor is there very much, if any, film on the rear hatch.

I follow it as my son drives it, and there is no smoke at all.

The emissions tests come back in the lower half of allowed standards, and it does not even have a catalytic on it to help.

Now I know nothing lasts forever, and I don't imply that the oil is vanishing Its likely that I burn a small amount, and blow a small amount out some weak seals, which adds up to a lot.

What I am curious to know, for any resident experts is, are there any seals or gaskets that I could replace without dropping the engine, or wrenching my back, that might be contributing to this problem, meaning where can the oil blow out, under pressure?

Ideally, I would replace the motor, but gas prices, and my wallet make that a dicey choice at this point in my life. It runs so dang smooth, gets 20-23 mpg, and has never failed me or left me hung out to dry, ( but for the fuel pump once) in spite of my 'online forum induced paranoia' " I almost hate to crack it open....

I am not that familiar with the design of the engine, to know where blow-by could occur. To lengthen this even more, I am considering doing the heads and cylinders/rings/pistons and leaving the bottom end alone, but do not know if that will allow me to replace all the potential problem seals. Do I have to split the case, to insure I get them all?

If you read this far, I sure appreciate it Just wanted to get all the info into a post, to avoid confusion, and hopefully get some useful tips or comments.

Thanks a lot,

John

[Bleyseng]

200k on a aircooled is about it..
the rods, all the bearings etc in the bottom end should be out of spec now so its time to rebuild it all.

The heads for sure will need valve guides, new springs, and seats along with new valves.

I would get a Raby engine kit for the rebuild as its complete.

[dingo]

You could put an oil-catch in line with your breather pipe to see how much oil is being passed back into the intake.

Colin is well past the 500k mark...so you never know how much life is left in your engine, (despite being a heavier vehicle)

[ruckman101]

Almost sounds like an engine block crack.

I dealt with that on a 1600 upright, but there was a serious oil pressure drop that would light the idiot lamp and a serious film of oil on the back. It would come and go.

Then again, I've heard that the 2 liter cases are impervious, so I don't know.



neal

[Amskeptic]

My question deals with oil consumption. Sometimes, I use a qt in a hundred miles, and other times, I go four hundred without a whole quart being used.

Piston ring rotation can give you occasional bursts of oil consumption as they line up at the bottom of the cylinder bores.

Give your engine a thorough cleaning:

A) if you do not have major oil drips under the car after an overnight park,
B) if you do not have excessive oil on the bottom of the crankcase or along the muffler or engine carrier after a hard freeway run,
C) if you do not have wet plugs,
D) if you do not have piston slap or bearing knocks,

and you are putting in 4 quarts every 1,000 miles, just forget about oil changes (as long as your last strainer plate clean-out did not show too much crap in it). Change the filter every 5,000 miles and drive it some more.
Engines can reach their most long-lasting homeostasis when oil consumption is high. There are some environmental concerns, yes, but if can propel itself down the road without clouds of blue smoke, I say drive it.
Colin

[chitwnvw]

I agree with the above...mostly. You are burning a lot of oil, but it seems that you've kind of gotten into a routine and you and your engine are in sync. That and everything else about the engine seems healthy. I say drive and keep an eye on the engine for a sign that all is not well.

[bottomend]

I disagree with the above statements. I think it's not right that an engine burn so much oil. The thing wasn't designed to consume at this level and it's taxing to the environment.

By encouraging this fellow to run an engine with such high consumption rates you're not doing anyone any favors. It only sets out to prove the point that the engine will " technically" keep running but at what cost?

My vote; it's time to rebuild, and the sooner the better.

[chitwnvw]

Interesting. Like in business school they now teach ethics, because good business isn't always good for anything else. The ethics of vintage cars maintenance. There will often be two answers. If I was the vanagon owner, I wouldn't want to pull that engine, because it's a total rebuild and that means time, money, and not driving that car.

But I'm not that owner, they will need to look into their own heart and see what decision lies there...

[Amskeptic]

I disagree with the above statements. I think it's not right that an engine burn so much oil. The thing wasn't designed to consume at this level and it's taxing to the environment.

"The emissions test come back in the lower half of allowed standards."
"It does not leak oil, at all,either sitting for a long time, or after an extended run."

So what is the problem? The environment is not getting taxed if there is no oil leaching into the ground. If this guy's engine is below emission limits by half, then it is burning the oil very successfully, like a diesel engine. I encourage nothing. I shared an opinion. . . that still stands.
Colin

[vanagonvw]

Want to thank everyone who has chimed in. I appreciate the different viewpoints, and ideas....

I drive the van all of about 5000 miles a year, max, and so I don't look upon it as all that much of an environmental contributor, especially since my other vehicle is an older economy car that delivers 30+ mpg. I do my part I respect the point tho, and if it was a daily drive, I would be going about this much differently.

I am not in a position to get a new engine, so even tho that would be the ideal, its not gonna happen. I am afraid that if it comes to that, the van has to go, which would really make me sad, as I do so enjoy driving it.

I am having a problem with backfiring, which may be related <shrug> but its been using oil for years and years, and this backfiring only started up a few weeks ago.....

One thing I would agree on, is that consuming the oil, keeps the engine fresher <g> About 8 years ago, it was a leaker, and very frustrating, and when the oil plug over the front of the engine finally popped out and wiped out the clutch, I had my mechanic seal up every possible source of oil drips, as long as he was so far into it, and it has been clean ever since. All those years of always adding oil, have seen to it that the engine runs on pretty clean, new oil, and I am positive that this has contributed to its long life. now and then, I check the oil screen, and I don't see any signs of obvious problems.

Not the best way to get there, but it did work out well, in that regard.

Frankly, I am still not convinced as to what is happening to the oil, and can only assume its a combo of blow-by and burning, which means I keep using it, until I find a few thousand dollars behind the couch.... I hope I can make it run long enough to get lucky!

Much obliged for all the input...

John

[bottomend]

Even though the oil isn't dripping on the ground doens't mean there isn't waste happening here. It's obviously being burned at an accelerated rate.

This adds up to more emissions even though the smog check numbers are still acceptable. Do they check for particulates? I dont think this is part of the test, right? Oil is being consumed not at the factory prescribed rate, thus, the car is not operating within factory limits ( it's waaaay off!) so, it needs to be brought back to within those limits.

A car can still be drivable on half inflated tires.

An engine will still start with a spark plug ( or two!) pulled.

A car will still stop with the front brake calipers removed.

You can still see out of a cracked front windsheild.

You can use a rag to "close" your gas filler pipe.

You could keep completely worn down windshiled wipers.

You could drive with a burt out headlight.

You can drive around the world without a rearview mirror.

You can drive 80 years and never once use the seat belt (flame ignited).

You could use drinking straws for gas line ( "just keep changing them often and it'll work fine").

The car will run with timing set at 30* at idle.

You could still drive on tires that are low on tread.

You could drive without ever fixing the non operational horn.

You could use at small nail to open the drivers side door that has the stuck lock.

You could adjust your valves to .002 hot.

You could wonder if Twin Falls resembles his own avater.

You could scrape off the paint on the body and it'll still drive.

You could remove the cluth disc and still shift.

You could install four different weight pistons.

You could never wash your bus.

You could wash your bus untill they have you commited.

You could spend two weeks of your life painting little dots on the headliner.

You could spend two days installing a headliner that already has the dots.

You could sit in the origenal seats till the horse that supplied the hair learns to speak and ask's for it back. ( RIP Mr. Ed)

You could switch the seats to something more comfortable with more adjustment.

You could increase the size of the engine from 1700cc to 1800cc to 2000cc.

You could keep the stock camshaft untill it makes beatiful designs and then peer into it in hopes of returing to those glory days of extreme and misguided LSD experimentation.

You could never drive your bus, in hopes of it becomming a collectors item then sell it to a museum for people in the future to look at and laugh at.

You could shrink wrap yourself with only a pee hole and mouth hole open, attened Burning Man to "be different" then return to your cubicle life a week later, sunburned and still unhappy.



My point? This guy is a new poster and if his bus is running? Fine. But if his bus ( or ... van. Sorry!) is not running fine, then dont yank him into the land of dogma, milk and honey.

Sir, there IS something wrong with your car's engine. You can start collecting the parts for a nice rebuild that will run you about $1500 total and by the time the money is ready, you will have read the required books, posted the required questions and done the required homework the engine you build will be YOURS, will not leak oil, and run terrific! putt, putt, putt...




[/i]

[vanagonvw]

Even though the oil isn't dripping on the ground doens't mean there isn't waste happening here. It's obviously being burned at an accelerated rate.

I don't wish to look like I am arguing with someone who is offering free advice but I have no proof that the engine is burning the oil at an accelerated rate, greater than I would expect for one so old. The plugs, the performance, and the lack of visible emissions, along with the tests, say its not happening.

I am of the opinion that it burns some, and it blows some out, and that is why I have asked for help determining where it can be blown out of the engine, so I can start there. Sure, putting in a new engine solves everything, but what if there is a seal or gasket that is allowing oil to blow out, which would be simpler, and cheaper to deal with? It might get me back to a quart in a thousand miles, which is a whole lot easier to accept.

You can start collecting the parts for a nice rebuild that will run you about $1500 total and by the time the money is ready,

Well, I have read the books, I am quite capable of the work, but in twenty years of discussions in other forums, and in person chats with those I trust, a rebuilt 2.0L engine starts at around $2300, and is guaranteed to go higher, so if you have a method for a good rebuild for just $1500, I am up for all the free advice you want to pass along

In the end, $2000+ is not gonna happen, on a 28 year old vehicle, that uses gasoline at the rate of $0.20 a mile, and even $1500 is probably too much, but I am always interested in options, and suggestions, so I am listening....

Thanks,

John

[Sluggo]

You could use at small nail to open the drivers side door that has the stuck lock.

Isn't that what you do?

You could scrape off the paint on the body and it'll still drive.

Is that a dig at me?

[bottomend]

I'm just saying that using roughly 5 quarts in 1000 miles is not supposed to happen. It's going somewhere. Either on the ground or in the air... at an accelerated rate.

It can either be caused by oil leaking out of a set of seals that'll cost under $25 or a set of rings/guides that are not much more money to replace ( labor not included here).

I dont have the $$$ #'s to post for you at this exact moment but a $1500 rebuild is very do-able. You just have to know where the bodies are buried and do alot of the work yourself.

I'm glad you're still posting here on this thread. I hope my little freak-out didn't scare you. I was trying to make a point at how we can talk ourselves into burying our heads in the sand trying to promote an adgenda without looking at the big picture. In general, people can become very myopic and it gets annoying to me, thats all.


Sluggo, I may have been refering to your pretty bus. I dunno. I was just letting my mind wander a bit.

[chitwnvw]

...I am considering doing the heads and cylinders/rings/pistons and leaving the bottom end alone, but do not know if that will allow me to replace all the potential problem seals. Do I have to split the case, to insure I get them all?...

Thanks a lot,

John

Going back to the top, vanagonvw could attempt what he's proposing.