Dual Webers fine tuned

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72Hardtop
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Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by 72Hardtop » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:30 pm

FYI:

I've dialed the Weber IDF's in further with the LM-2.

2056cc T-4 1972 Westy hardtop

Jetting is now:

47.5 idles
120 main jets
200 air corrector jets
F11 tubes
28mm vents
Float height - 10.5mm (ball not depressed gasket in place)
Float drop - 32mm (28-32mm is the range)

At WOT I'll see mid 12 then hold 13 or so

At cruise around town I'll see AFR with part/cracked throttle anywhere from 15 or so to 17-18

On the highway at speed the AFR with part throttle will hover mid 15 - 18 or so mostly. Get on it and it will richen to high 12 - low 13.

As for lean tune cruising it can only be achieved if you're using a vacuum advance distributor or a mapped EFI set up of some sort. No centrifugal only distributors allowed. You simply won't get enough added advance to burn the lean AFR at the right moment.

I'm using a Bosch SVDA that I've limited the advance in a few degrees. Out of the box it had 25 degrees of total centrifugal advance (not incl vac advance). Too much. I cleaned it well and lubed it with Super-Lube. Then checked the vac can with a might vac tester. It will begin movement at 3.25in and end at ~ 8-9in.

Once that was done you need to see if you'll get the vacuum pull needed at the carb. Hook a small vacuum hose up to the vac advance port that allows for ported vacuum (none at idle). On a warm engine blip the throttle and watch for vacuum gauge needle movement. It should flick quickly to a higher reading perhaps 7-11in range or so. The flicking of the needle is perfectly normal because the vac pull is at cracked/part throttle condition only. With the engine idling parked there is little to no load on the engine hence the quick gauge movement.

Look for how high the needle is going and get an average high. If you're getting 7+in you'll have no issue with using an SVDA. You'll only need to pull from (1) carb vac port (preferably #4) given it's closer to the distributor. I also use an anti-pulse valve situated as close to the carb port as you can get. Smooths the vacuum out.

As for the carbs....

Start by cleaning them well and checking the float height/drop (see above). No more than 3.5lbs fuel pressure for Weber carbs. Once the carbs are installed you'll start with the idle speed screws in 1/2 turn from first contact. No more. The A/F mixture screws will be roughly 2 turns or so out from lightly seated position.

A good jetting size to start with on a 2L engine is 50 idles, 120 mains, 200 air corrector, 28mm vents. This will get you in the ball park (those at or near sea level)

Linkage should be as close to sync as you can get initially (cold engine). Don't worry about perfect cause it will change slightly once the engine gets to normal operating temp. Once the engine is running (likely like a tractor) let it warm up a bit. When you feel it's warm....

Start by adjusting LBI on each air mixture screw (highest/smoothest running spot). Once done check your sync again with a snail. Then check your idle speed. Keep it around 800 or so for now. Bring a higher flowing carb down to the lower flowing carb initially. Now do your LBI again for each A/F screw.

When done, check your sync again. Good? Now you can again adjust to your desired idle speed by bringing each carb up a bit at a time. Lower speed is better IMO. Too high and you expose the progression ports. Once done you do LBI again on each A/F screw on each cylinder. If the idle speed changes (higher/lower) after adjustment you do another re-sync and LBI again.

Now that the engine is nice and warm, you'll check and confirm your carbs are coming off the throttle stops at the precise same time. Any adjustment here and you go back and check your sync and LBI again. Now drive it and pay close attention to what it's doing in different RPM ranges with a STEADY pedal. Any issue that arises at a given RPM will be a clue as to whether or not it's your idle circuit.

With regards to Weber IDF's....

A bigger air corrector jet will tip the main jet in sooner. Smaller and it will delay the main from coming in. The below graph shows the relation between EGT, CHT, Horsepower, Internal cylinder pressure, Brake specific fuel consumption

As you can see going leaner from 15:1 the CHT & EGT's go down. Stay out of the 14 - 15:1 range at WOT. Part throttle condition/s do not equate to load condition. Your throttle (foot) position dictates that.

The line at the bottom of the graph is 1/Brake Specific Fuel Consumption.....(Power from fuel used). Note the flat area of the curve and where in relation to the AFR it is and EGT/CHT....that should be your target 'cruise' range at part throttle condition.
Attachments
afr map.jpg
afr map.jpg (36.78 KiB) Viewed 9077 times
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

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asiab3
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Re: Dual Webers Dialed In

Post by asiab3 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:15 pm

How applicable would you say your jetting could be to a Type 1 of similar displacement?

What is your camshaft profile/model?

Would you think the CB Magnaspark with vacuum sensor could be used to achieve a safe lean-cruise setup? Would you run the vacuum sensor on manifold or throttle port vacuum?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

72Hardtop
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Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
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Re: Dual Webers Dialed In

Post by 72Hardtop » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:58 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:15 pm
How applicable would you say your jetting could be to a Type 1 of similar displacement?

What is your camshaft profile/model?

Would you think the CB Magnaspark with vacuum sensor could be used to achieve a safe lean-cruise setup? Would you run the vacuum sensor on manifold or throttle port vacuum?

Robbie
I see no reason that this would not apply to a Type-1 bus as well. My cam is a Web 73 w/Web solids. The jetting may differ slightly due to port design on the T-1 heads vs T-4. An LM-2 however will tell you everything. Without one...one is just guessing.

As for the CB set up it will depend on whether it requires MAP pressure vs ported. But the same rules will apply. Remember a bus may be heavier but your foot will also be in it slightly more than a lighter counterpart vehicle. The lean tune cruise is still cooler running. Optimum range 15.5 - 17:1 or so.

I've been trending (IR gun) mine since the jetting and after a good highway run the valve cover temps with the IR will read 190F-198F when I quickly jump out and scan them. Carb temps are a cool 75-80F (@ 60F ambient temp), intake runner temps ~110-120

Best guess at this point I've probably squeezed 1-2mpg more on the highway. The pic is just before I dropped in the Bosch SVDA and Pertronix 40K coil. The old distributor was my German 009 re-curved. Back up dizzy now.

Bottom-line....Everything lean of 15:1 is cooler running. Even cooler than 12.5 - 13:1
Attachments
t-4.jpg
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

72Hardtop
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Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by 72Hardtop » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:34 pm

Some more IR temp readings.... Ambient temp ~55F light rain

After 18 mile drive (freeway/city) Renton Highlands to Kirkland,Wa. then shutdown (park) and grab readings quickly.

Both sump plates - 145-148F

Oil cooler -174F

Valve covers - 194F (dead center)

Carbs - 92F

Intake manifolds - 128F

Coroner of block (1 in from bottom edge) near oil filter - 140F

Distributor - 120F

Engine has all cooling tin, T-stat (Awesome Powdercoat) and timed at 28* BTDC (hose off) @3200+rpms (current jetting below)

I'm going to drop the air corrector jets to 190. During barely cracked throttle condition the AFR if at 18+ the carbs will mildly protest (snort) at highway speed occasionally. Around town driving I'm not able to get it to hang in 18+ long enough for the carbs to protest (lower rpm's) Around town it will hover while at cruise low-mid 15-17 range light/part throttle.

The drop to 190 will richen it slightly from 18+ (barely cracked throttle) range. The current jetting is very very close to optimal as far as Power/MPG optimal performance are concerned.
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

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Amskeptic
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Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:06 pm

72Hardtop wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:34 pm
Some more IR temp readings.... Ambient temp ~55F light rain

After 18 mile drive (freeway/city) Renton Highlands to Kirkland,Wa. then shutdown (park) and grab readings quickly.

Both sump plates - 145-148F

Oil cooler -174F

Valve covers - 194F (dead center)

Carbs - 92F

Intake manifolds - 128F

Coroner of block (1 in from bottom edge) near oil filter - 140F

Distributor - 120F

Engine has all cooling tin, T-stat (Awesome Powdercoat) and timed at 28* BTDC (hose off) @3200+rpms (current jetting below)

I'm going to drop the air corrector jets to 190. During barely cracked throttle condition the AFR if at 18+ the carbs will mildly protest (snort) at highway speed occasionally. Around town driving I'm not able to get it to hang in 18+ long enough for the carbs to protest (lower rpm's) Around town it will hover while at cruise low-mid 15-17 range light/part throttle.

The drop to 190 will richen it slightly from 18+ (barely cracked throttle) range. The current jetting is very very close to optimal as far as Power/MPG optimal performance are concerned.

Let us know what your fuel economy is across a couple of tanks of gas. Also, if you could shoot a picture of your plugs the next time they are out.
What is your current compression ratio AND measured pressures during cranking?
Thanx . . .

Here is what CHTs between 390-415*, 16-17 mpg, and 3,000 miles at 65 mph on a factory build L-Jet 2.0 engine looks like:

Image


... and most-recent compression test with factory cam and 7.3:1 ratio:

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

72Hardtop
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Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
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Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by 72Hardtop » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:27 pm

Mileage the last few tanks has been 17 combined city/hwy. Plugs will have to get a bit more seasoned since I put them in a few hundred miles ago (NGK B5ES). Compression was set at 7.8 and I run 89 octane.

Ill put up a pic of the previous set that had -16k on them. The jetting on them was...

50 idles
125 mains
180 air correctors
F11 tubes
28mm vents
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by 72Hardtop » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:30 pm

1 & 2... (not sure why they posted upside down) 1 on the left then 2
20181005_151552[1].jpg
3 & 4...
20181005_151603[1].jpg
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by 72Hardtop » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:38 pm

Another shot: No idea why they post upside down but clicking on it uprights it.
Attachments
20181014_114130[1].jpg
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

User avatar
Amskeptic
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Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:53 pm

That's excellent for fire-breathing big honkin carbs.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by 72Hardtop » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:02 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:53 pm
That's excellent for fire-breathing big honkin carbs.
Colin
With those 50 idles it's a bit rich for my liking. Example....in 1st or 2nd gear driving slow or crawl speed the AFR will range high 8 - 9.x range (too rich).

Get the RPM's up a bit and it will lean to high 11 - 12 range in 3rd gear. Still a bit rich.

On the highway in 4th gear (part throttle) the AFR floats between high 11 - 13 or so.

No way for me to take advantage of a 'lean tune' cruise with those AFR numbers with a vacuum advance distributor. Once I put the 47.5 idles in the engine woke up quite literally =D> . I also have much better part/cracked throttle AFR numbers for the added vac advance that range now 15:0 - 18:0 during cruise. Only issue...if the AFR during cracked/part throttle pushes beyond 18+ the carbs will mildly protest (snort, cough...) During decel (foot off throttle) the AFR will go 20+ (no carb issue/s given no load scenario).

I'm at a cross road in terms of my AFR once the RPM's/speed go above 65mph+....the AFR once I get the speed up towards 70mph will with steady peddle range 14:X or so (no good). If I feather the throttle I can get the 15+.

The solution?

Either go down on the air corrector jets to (190) or bump up the main jets to 125. I don't have the 190's now but I do have the 125 min jets. I just put in the 125 main jets and will see how it responds/runs with them. I don't believe the air corrector change is the needed solution given the main circuit comes in good now with the 200's vs the 180's I had. Going up on the mains will richen it a smidgen in the higher RPM band.

The (14:0 - 15:0) is the hottest range in terms of EGT's and CHT's. Get beyond that range on the 'progression circuit' and the temps dramatically drop. During power/WOT get it to 12:3 - 13:2 or so. It's imperative that one NOT be in the 14-15 range during WOT/heavy acceleration time. Even during 'cruise' period the optimal range temp wise is 16-17. Once you go beyond 18+ AFR the power drops off to the point where it isn't worth it fuel wise not to mention with our ignition set ups we don't stand much of a chance with that lean of an AFR during light load cruise moments.

I've quickly found that with my set up the carbs can tolerate 16-17:X without carb protest. Get into the 18+ range during light load cruise and they will begin to protest. There is a BIG misconception that running lean with an air cooled engine is a death sentence. That is completely untrue.

However....running lean (14-15 range) while under LOAD is a death sentence.

In the end LOAD is ALWAYS defined by throttle position.
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

User avatar
Amskeptic
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Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:56 pm

72Hardtop wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:02 pm
There is a BIG misconception that running lean with an air cooled engine is a death sentence. That is completely untrue.

However....running lean (14-15 range) while under LOAD is a death sentence.

In the end LOAD is ALWAYS defined by throttle position.

Well, I don't listen to the ground-based blow-hards. I listen to the airplane people. Your chart even looks like that Lycoming chart.

My problem is and was and shall be the incredible variability in ground-based driving. A 16 mile hill climb from Baker to the Halloran (?) Summit on a 116* day is more work than any Lycoming climb ever was . . . they fly up towards cooler temps!

So anyways, I experimented all summer in 2010 with the BobD L-Jet and was able to discover some interesting AFR moments and some obstacles I could not clear.

This is a quiz question for you:
Although I discovered that I could adjust the AFM to shut off the fuel injection on overrun (AFR shot up to 37/60/infinity), what was the unintended consequence that I chose to avoid by richening it until it no longer shut off the fuel on overrun?


Non-quiz observation, I never could successfully do the lean part throttle without a hellacious hot transition over to the necessary rich under full load.

Did you know I got better fuel economy with a 11.3 AFR full throttle than a 12.5 full throttle?
Semi-quiz question, Why?
Colin :cyclopsani:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by 72Hardtop » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:47 pm

One of consequences with an AFM is there just doesn't seem to be a means to get more out of them as far as covering both situations ideally optimally vs a set of dual Webers or Dells by their very nature.

As for your MPG's likely placebo effect. Full throttle moments are but brief periods for any given tank of fuel ran.

Going from a lean cruise (15:5-17) to a rich (12:3-13:5) when needed will require a move 'thru' the heat-zone but what's important is to not be hanging in the heat-zone. That is something I've found harder to do with a stock set up vs one that has dual Webers or Dells. With the duals one has fairly good control over each port/barrel individually. You also have a wide array of methods to tune to such as idle circuit, air circuit, fuel circuit, vent control and emulsion control.

Now once one has gotten their jetting down say at 'sea level' you should be covered for the most part up to roughly ~4000 feet. The AFR may not be 'optimal' but it shouldn't be too rich or lean to effect driving. Even with a stock set up if one is planing on staying up at that elevation for a length of time it'll likely require a bump one way or another to get it optimal. A big benefit with today's systems is it's all done automatically :cheers:

My previous jetting with 50 idles, 180 airs, 125 mains was netting me on my trip in 2014 from (Renton - Huntington Beach,Ca.) and back between 19-22mpg at 60-65mph (lower with headwinds more with tailwinds) on the highway. Don't use CHT gauge. Never have felt the need for one.
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by 72Hardtop » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:11 pm

Current jetting:

47.5 idles
125 mains
190 air corrector jets
F11 tubes
28mm vents
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

User avatar
Amskeptic
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Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:41 pm

72Hardtop wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:11 pm
Current jetting:

47.5 idles
125 mains
190 air corrector jets
F11 tubes
28mm vents

Fill in when you can:
CHTs @ cruise/full load, mpg,
ColinHibernationON
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: Dual Webers fine tuned

Post by 72Hardtop » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:01 pm

No CHT gauge here. Never have used one.

Valve lash checks are never more than .001 off

As for MPG's thus far around town is 16

On the highway 21-22
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

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