Bay Bus Shift Points

Bus, Microbus, Transporter, Station Wagon, Vanagon, Camper, Pick-Up.

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Amskeptic
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Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:02 am

Please Read

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11365

I will fill in with splitty diagrams later, they are not part of the book:

1968-1973
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x133 ... g:original
Image


1974-1979
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x133 ... g:original
Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Kubelwagen
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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Kubelwagen » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:18 am

But what about us poor neglected Vanagon drivers! Are we in the book? :) I know, we've got the 2.0 - I'm just hoping for cool drawings of beautiful square buses!

Looks great -when can we pre-order?
Patience the 81 Adventurewagen

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Bleyseng
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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:48 am

Nicely done! I do think VW tried to keep the max cruising speed at the max fan cooling sweet spot at 4200rpms. All I have read indicate that the type 4 fan maxes cooling at 4200rpms unless you modify the hell out of it. Yes, the 72 bus with its stock setup was nice and now I wish I had spent the time and money to rebuild my duals back then instead of listening to the aftermarket sales crap and install a single carb that never ran right. Changing it to a 1800 with 1800 heads made more a difference with 8 to 1 CR and non stock exhaust. (this was back in the 80's.) Now with my 2.0L I drive at 4200 rpms down the freeway happy as a clam.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Amskeptic
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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:09 pm

Kubelwagen wrote:But what about us poor neglected Vanagon drivers! Are we in the book? :) I know, we've got the 2.0 - I'm just hoping for cool drawings of beautiful square buses!

Looks great -when can we pre-order?
Aw gee, um your vans have VW engines?
Colin :blackeye:

( you get to use the late bay diagrams! same engine and transaxle ratios)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Amskeptic
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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:13 pm

Bleyseng wrote:Nicely done! I do think VW tried to keep the max cruising speed at the max fan cooling sweet spot at 4200rpms. All I have read indicate that the type 4 fan maxes cooling at 4200rpms unless you modify the hell out of it. Yes, the 72 bus with its stock setup was nice and now I wish I had spent the time and money to rebuild my duals back then instead of listening to the aftermarket sales crap and install a single carb that never ran right. Changing it to a 1800 with 1800 heads made more a difference with 8 to 1 CR and non stock exhaust. (this was back in the 80's.) Now with my 2.0L I drive at 4200 rpms down the freeway happy as a clam.
Stupid forum! Is your reply window stretched a mile when you replied?

Max cooling fan rpms? Naw.
I got the formula now, after sixty years of Volkswagen shift points analysis. They merely take a hundred off the horsepower peak.
The '73/'74 buses had the nastiest head temps of all buses with those dreadful "afterburners", and they shoved that engine to 4,700 rpm cruising speed at 78 mph without batting an eyelash. Fan is good for 5,200 rpm of continuous cooling in the VW 411 at 96 mph!
Colin
(p.s. I love the 1700 engines even more now)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:38 pm

ok, where did you find out the data on the fans. Lots of guys have tested the fan for max cooling and what happens when you modify the fans. Thats why racers remove all but four of the blades so at 8000 rpms it still cools but doesn't suck hp.
yes, the reply box stretches across the bottom but it matches the giant pics you posted. I agree with the early 1700 with their indestructible heads as I used drive around at 75 all the time in mine over to Eastern Washington on I-90.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:59 pm

Bleyseng wrote: ok, where did you find out the data on the fans.
racers remove all but four of the blades so at 8000 rpms it still cools but doesn't suck hp.
The data I have on the Type 4 fans comes from the cruise capability of the 411s at 96 mph.
Now who says that a fully bladed fan is going to *lose* efficiency from 4,200 rpm to 4,800?

So the race boys are de-fanging them at a ratio of 9 to 1?
They don't want to lose horsepower, the poor dears? Sort of a take-off on the Great Porsche Fan Blade Discovery,
that the 5 blade fan worked better at high speed than the eleven blade fan.
I don't want to lose CFMs at idle, at putter, at torque, or at horsepower peak, I'm keeping my blades.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Bleyseng
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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Bleyseng » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:53 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Bleyseng wrote: ok, where did you find out the data on the fans.
racers remove all but four of the blades so at 8000 rpms it still cools but doesn't suck hp.
The data I have on the Type 4 fans comes from the cruise capability of the 411s at 96 mph.
Now who says that a fully bladed fan is going to *lose* efficiency from 4,200 rpm to 4,800?

So the race boys are de-fanging them at a ratio of 9 to 1?
They don't want to lose horsepower, the poor dears? Sort of a take-off on the Great Porsche Fan Blade Discovery,
that the 5 blade fan worked better at high speed than the eleven blade fan.
I don't want to lose CFMs at idle, at putter, at torque, or at horsepower peak, I'm keeping my blades.
Colin
Raby did the last testing on the fans and found that it maxed out its cooling capability at about 4200rpms or rather that was max best cooling rpm with a stock type 4 fan setup. The fans still cool above that, it is where it can't push thru anymore air (CFM) thru the heads,cylinders given their air resistance. This is one of the reasons big steel 103cc cylinders warp as the fan can't fully cool evenly these and so the 94mm size is best to stay with for cooling. This is why the 2270cc (96mmx 78mm) engine works so well for a street engine as it still cools just fine with the stock type 4 setup.
In the 70-80's 914 racers found out for higher rpms driving (above 5000rpms) to reduce hp loss and maintain cooling you had to remove most of the fan blades . It wasn't done for street cars that idle but for track cars that see 7-8,000 rpms.
Note that VW had geared the maxcruising speed at 4,200rpms in a 2.0L so you had max cooling at that speed along with max hp (roughly). In a late bay with a 2.0L then as you cruise at 75mph you had max fan cooling too. But in 1975 who could cruise at 75 mph? Only in Montana as the 55 mph speed limit had kicked in everywhere else as I recall.
The later fan design fans put out more air than the early style too, something like a 5% increase is CFM IIRC. Also never plug the heat exchanger outlets as those must be open or the air flow is screwed up and you actually reduce fan output. Polishing the inside of the fan housing helps slightly improve fan output but why bother.
All this is if IIRC! if you have any other info great. I have driven my 914 2.0L at 100mph for about an hour without any cooling problems as CHT's and oil temps were normal on a 95F day. Autocrossing the 914 thou always heated the engine up quickly too high.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:45 am

Bleyseng wrote: Raby did the last testing on the fans and found that it maxed out its cooling capability at about 4200rpms or rather that was max best cooling rpm with a stock type 4 fan setup. The fans still cool above that, it is where it can't push thru anymore air (CFM) thru the heads,cylinders given their air resistance. This is one of the reasons big steel 103cc cylinders warp as the fan can't fully cool evenly these
and so the 94mm size is best to stay with for cooling.
This is why the 2270cc (96mmx 78mm) engine works so well for a street engine as it still cools just fine with the stock type 4 setup.
One of the big reasons the steel 103 cylinders warp is not that they are getting inadequate cooling from the fan, it is that they just have too much mass! Cylinder barrels are hardly a bottleneck of cooling woe, Bleyseng, but rather the Laws of Physics that tell you you can't have a blast of cold air on one side and hot as hell on the other. That is the whys and wherefores of deflector tins. And I would like to know who re-engineered them (!) for the 103 application.
Bleyseng wrote: Note that VW had geared the maxcruising speed at 4,200rpms in a 2.0L so you had max cooling at that speed along with max hp (roughly).
Poppycock! The cruising speed was solely determined by horsepower peak vs drag. The fan was a happy camper one year prior at 4,800 rpm cruising speed for the '72-75 bus, and it had just finished the 412 duties at sustained 5,000 rpm.
Bleyseng wrote: In a late bay with a 2.0L then as you cruise at 75mph you had max fan cooling too.
But in 1975 who could cruise at 75 mph?
All around the world, Mr. International, you know this, Australia, South Africa, Germany, those engines were designed for flat-out motoring. Yes, American emissions requirements were an issue for us, but the fan was not the weak link.
Bleyseng wrote: The later fan design fans put out more air than the early style too,
Which "later" fan design are you talking about?
I remember only two:
The beautiful aerodynamic snout fan of the 411s and '72 bus.
The stupid air-pump pulley flange flattened out '73-up fan of the rest of the run.
No change in blade number or pitch that I can can recall from my failing memory banks.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by rustbus » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:57 am

I also read somewhere that the later fan style, while uglier, put out more. but i didnt run the test myself :bom:

the best i could imagine is that the empty spot where the snout once was - now filled with soft flowy air and thus created less drag than having that main airflow graze the snout on its way past. laminar flow and all that.

no?

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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by luftvagon » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:24 pm

in my experience, i find that the head surface temperature (at stock Temp Sensor II location) increases up to 220F, at idle, and with increased RPM it radically decreases. I would love to do some experimentation on how it actually affects CHT.
1981 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia - air-cooled Type4 1970cc CV (hydraulic lifters, 42x36 valves, stock cam, microSquirt FI with wasted spark ignition)
1993 Ford F-250 XL LWB Extended Cab 7.3L IDI

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Bleyseng
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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:14 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Bleyseng wrote: Raby did the last testing on the fans and found that it maxed out its cooling capability at about 4200rpms or rather that was max best cooling rpm with a stock type 4 fan setup. The fans still cool above that, it is where it can't push thru anymore air (CFM) thru the heads,cylinders given their air resistance. This is one of the reasons big steel 103cc cylinders warp as the fan can't fully cool evenly these
and so the 94mm size is best to stay with for cooling.
This is why the 2270cc (96mmx 78mm) engine works so well for a street engine as it still cools just fine with the stock type 4 setup.
One of the big reasons the steel 103 cylinders warp is not that they are getting inadequate cooling from the fan, it is that they just have too much mass! Cylinder barrels are hardly a bottleneck of cooling woe, Bleyseng, but rather the Laws of Physics that tell you you can't have a blast of cold air on one side and hot as hell on the other. That is the whys and wherefores of deflector tins. And I would like to know who re-engineered them (!) for the 103 application.
Bleyseng wrote: Note that VW had geared the maxcruising speed at 4,200rpms in a 2.0L so you had max cooling at that speed along with max hp (roughly).
Poppycock! The cruising speed was solely determined by horsepower peak vs drag. The fan was a happy camper one year prior at 4,800 rpm cruising speed for the '72-75 bus, and it had just finished the 412 duties at sustained 5,000 rpm.
Bleyseng wrote: In a late bay with a 2.0L then as you cruise at 75mph you had max fan cooling too.
But in 1975 who could cruise at 75 mph?
All around the world, Mr. International, you know this, Australia, South Africa, Germany, those engines were designed for flat-out motoring. Yes, American emissions requirements were an issue for us, but the fan was not the weak link.
Bleyseng wrote: The later fan design fans put out more air than the early style too,
Which "later" fan design are you talking about?
I remember only two:
The beautiful aerodynamic snout fan of the 411s and '72 bus.
The stupid air-pump pulley flange flattened out '73-up fan of the rest of the run.
No change in blade number or pitch that I can can recall from my failing memory banks.
Colin
The beautiful snout fan is less efficient per the testing I read than the stupid air pump flange flattened out 73 and up fan by a few CFM.
Poppycock? isn't that a snack? I am going by real world testing not VW says a 412 can cruise at 5000rpms all day as so can my 914 2.0l as I have done that.
Most of the Type 4 powered buses were shipped to the US/Canada and 1600 dual port powered ones went to the ROW as they were cheaper. So unless you ordered one it came with a 1600. All the buses I have seen in Europe and South America except the Dutch boys camper was type one powered and their was imported later on from the US.
I have driven my Westy at 5000 rpms for about 3 hrs going 85-90mph as we had to make time cuz we were really late for a appointment in 95F weather. CHT's were fine but the oil temps did creep up to 240-250F range so that is one indication to me that we were beyond max cooling/cruising in a BUS. Normally I see oil at 220F and 350-375F CHTS's going 70-75 mph.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by 72Hardtop » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:17 am

So what would be the ideal shift points for say... a 2.1L (2056cc) with 002 trans and 185R 14 tires?
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:07 am

I'd say 5500 rpms in first, second and third as this is where valve float is just starting on a stock type 4.
In reality a stock type4's hp tops out at 4400rpms so that would be the shift point. :compress:
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Amskeptic
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Re: Bay Bus Shift Points

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:11 am

72Hardtop wrote:So what would be the ideal shift points for say... a 2.1L (2056cc) with 002 trans and 185R 14 tires?
You have a guesstimate in Bleyseng's answer . . . but we at Itinerant Air-Cooled endeavor not to guess.

Please provide the following information (if you have to research, research!)

Torque Peak RPM.
Horsepower Peak RPM
Your 002 ring and pinion ratio (the 5 ribs were 002 with a 4.86, we need to know if yours is a 5 rib or a 3 rib with 5.37)
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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