Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Fastback, Squareback, Notchback, T-3 Karmann Ghia.

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fancy pants
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Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by fancy pants » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:18 pm

Hey Portlanders -

I am planning to do some much needed diagnostics and repairs on my squareback tomorrow (Sunday 1/31) from 3pm-9pm. I would love some help if anyone is available and wants to work for beer and food. My plan is

1. diagnose/fix fuel smell coming from front end
2. figure out where I am am getting such a ridiculous amount of water in the car (the whole rear deck lid was full of standing water underneath the rubber mat, but not on top of the mat)
3. diagnosis squeaky front brake with vibration

Any takers? I will feed you well :bounce:
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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tristessa
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Re: Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by tristessa » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:13 am

I'll try and pop by after work (depends on when Mary gets home from Eugene), but in case I don't make it...
fancy pants wrote:2. figure out where I am am getting such a ridiculous amount of water in the car (the whole rear deck lid was full of standing water underneath the rubber mat, but not on top of the mat)
Look at the ECU cover/mounting plate under the driver-side interior panel. If you've never done it before, it can be a b**ch to get that thing installed "just right" so the seal actually seals water out of the cargo area.

... it can be a b**ch if you've done a bunch of them, too. :blackeye:
Remember, only YOU can prevent narcissism!

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:15 am

I'll check that out. I replaced the ECU this summer, so I most likely screwed up reinstalling it. I know that my rear window seals are bad, and the fender bead is nonfunctional - but I was assuming that the water would drain out the bottom somewhere...
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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whc03grady
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Re: Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by whc03grady » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:54 am

fancy pants wrote:1. diagnose/fix fuel smell coming from front end
Could it be a leaky overflow return hose (my terminology)?
See here. The part is still available from ISP West, number 10 here.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:29 am

Well, that was my first thought. Mine had disintegrated almost all the way through - and I used Jim Adney's replacement kit. That was definitely part of the problem, but the smell has not gotten any better, and it's worse when the car is running. I am thinking one of the hoses around the fuel pump/filter??? Will check it out this afternoon...

Speaking of which - did you have to do the overflow replacement on your square as well? Jim Adney recommends that the vent system be changed as well, and includes a hose that replaces the original vent hose, but just opens onto the ground, rather than using the existing overflow tank and charcoal canister. In fact he recommends removing these, which makes me a little uncomfortable. Have you, or anyone else, had to do this?
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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Amskeptic
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Re: Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:46 pm

fancy pants wrote: 1. diagnose/fix fuel smell coming from front end
2. figure out where I am am getting such a ridiculous amount of water in the car (the whole rear deck lid was full of standing water underneath the rubber mat, but not on top of the mat)
3. diagnosis squeaky front brake with vibration
1. Check evaporative hoses like the front fender canister + hoses to-and-fro. Check hose that leads to tunnel plate. Worst of all, check relief valve on the pump (little silvery cap thing sweged on. I won't even tell you what I did to Marina Squareback's fuel pump to get rid of THAT leak and it was still owned by another human being at the time.
(p.s. use original factory fuel layout, they weren't stupid)

2. When the floor gets doused like that, it is commonly the rear hatch window seal or the door seal. The door seal is supposed to have a nice little moulded gutteresque depression along the top run that often gets all screwed up wrinkled distorted if not ripped. The OEM padding under the soundboard is a rust trap galore. You want all windows and doors and ECU panel seals to be shipshape, sho do.

3. Other than sanding the disks with 220g 45* hatch twice, chamfer pads, clean calipers, adjust upper torsion arm slop, I can't imagine what needs to be done here. . . . where's my fantastic hamburger?
Colin :colors:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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fancy pants
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Re: Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by fancy pants » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:05 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
1. Check evaporative hoses like the front fender canister + hoses to-and-fro. Check hose that leads to tunnel plate. Worst of all, check relief valve on the pump (little silvery cap thing sweged on. I won't even tell you what I did to Marina Squareback's fuel pump to get rid of THAT leak and it was still owned by another human being at the time.
(p.s. use original factory fuel layout, they weren't stupid)
Well, one problem my be that all of that stuff around the fuel pump has been altered. The previous owner has installed a filter POST fuel pump that I know I need to get rid of. Also, when I turn the key, the fuel pump turns on and keeps on pumping (rather than shuts down after a few seconds), which seems weird.

Also, I am installing the Jim Adney replacement kit for the overflow hose, and he gets rid of all of the post-1970 vent stuff (overflow tank, charcoal canister). Do you recommend I NOT do this?
Amskeptic wrote: 2. When the floor gets doused like that, it is commonly the rear hatch window seal or the door seal. The door seal is supposed to have a nice little moulded gutteresque depression along the top run that often gets all screwed up wrinkled distorted if not ripped. The OEM padding under the soundboard is a rust trap galore. You want all windows and doors and ECU panel seals to be shipshape, sho do.
ALL of my window and door seals are shot. The seal on the rear hatch is in pieces. I am planning on replacing all of these when I get it repainted, but that won't be until next fall at the earliest. Looks like it's gonna be a long winter...



:-({|=
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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Amskeptic
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Re: Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:50 pm

fancy pants wrote:
when I turn the key, the fuel pump turns on seems weird.

Jim Adney replacement kit for the overflow hose, and he gets rid of all of the post-1970 vent stuff (overflow tank, charcoal canister). Do you recommend I NOT do this?
The ECU is responsible for providing the fuel pump prime. If yours has been wired to turn on with the ignition, check wiring at pump for any deviation from factory harness. Then go to the fuel pump relay and check to see if the relay is properly wired to the FI harness. There is a connector in the engine compartment that turns on the fuel pump if it is grounded. I do not have my car here, so I cannot be more specific.

Does the Jim Adney boutique kit answer you regarding fuel tank liquid/vapor expansion in the heat and the proper disposal of fumes? Does it address the enrichment of the engine's mixture in the heat that the factory programming is expecting?
fancypants wrote:ALL of my window and door seals are shot. The seal on the rear hatch is in pieces. I am planning on replacing all of these when I get it repainted, but that won't be until next fall at the earliest. Looks like it's gonna be a long winter...
Car indoors or outdoors? Think about your answer. The fastest way to ruin is to allow it to get wet inside.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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whc03grady
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Re: Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by whc03grady » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:50 pm

fancy pants wrote:When I turn the key, the fuel pump turns on and keeps on pumping (rather than shuts down after a few seconds), which seems weird.
The pump runs all the time with the key on. When there's no demand for fuel at the injectors (i.e. when the car's not running), the gas just goes 'round and 'round the fuel rail. (Someone please chime in if I'm wrong about this so I can eat some crow.)
fancy pants wrote:Also, I am installing the Jim Adney replacement kit for the overflow hose, and he gets rid of all of the post-1970 vent stuff (overflow tank, charcoal canister). Do you recommend I NOT do this?
I think Jim Adney is no idiot, but Jim Adney isn't hundreds of 1960s/70s-era VW engineers either. Without a truly compelling reason to do otherwise, I'd say leave as much of it as stock as possible.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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Amskeptic
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Re: Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:53 pm

whc03grady wrote:The pump runs all the time with the key on.
Not supposed to. It is supposed to give you a three second prime, then shut off. Only when the engine is running, is the pump allowed to continue operating.

With my Squareback's fuel pump circuit working correctly, I have to do about three key on/offs to get my system pressurized after a long sit.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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whc03grady
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Re: Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by whc03grady » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:04 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
whc03grady wrote:The pump runs all the time with the key on.
Not supposed to.
In anticipation of this not being a model year change between Marina (1973, whose pump shuts down) and Gertie (1971, whose does not)...
Image

I'll look at my D-Jetronic manual later.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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fancy pants
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Re: Garage afternoon/evening - Portland

Post by fancy pants » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:41 pm

whc03grady wrote:
I think Jim Adney is no idiot, but Jim Adney isn't hundreds of 1960s/70s-era VW engineers either. Without a truly compelling reason to do otherwise, I'd say leave as much of it as stock as possible.
So, Adney's reasoning is that the metal vent line that leads to the overflow tank is rusted closed, almost invariably. Hal has also verified that this is largely his experience as well.

So, the crack in the overflow hose that is also invariably there in these old T3's is the only way the tank is venting. Once you repair that hose, as I just did, there is no way for the tank to vent. His "fix" is removing the metal line, the overflow tank, the charcoal canister, and all of the lines that ran to it. Then he suggests plugging the hole in the air cleaner with something.

With his "fix", the metal line is replaced with a plastic one that just drains onto the ground. He says this is exactly like the pro-1970 cars, and that the tank would only overflow if it was filled on a hot day and immediately parked. This makes me a little bit uncomfortable. Anyone have another suggestion to as to how to PROPERLY vent the tank?

I have replaced my overflow hose, which was severely cracked, and now am concerned that there is no vent in place.

HELP :bounce:
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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fancy pants
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Post by fancy pants » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:54 pm

Does anyone know off-hand what size fuel line is used in the T3? Is it 8mm?
John
76 Bus - Riviera
81 Mercedes 300TD
05 Golf TDI

Gone but not forgotten:
1972 Bus
1973 Squareback


We are not going to stick anything that dirty down in your hole - Colin, 6/30/2010

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vdubzen
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Post by vdubzen » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:45 am

i found this, might help with sizes.

http://www.mamotorworks.com/acvw-air-co ... -4982.html
1960 Karmann Ghia
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1974 Beetle

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Bleyseng
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Post by Bleyseng » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:30 am

fancy pants wrote:Does anyone know off-hand what size fuel line is used in the T3? Is it 8mm?
I thought all Djet FI fuel line was 7mm id. Again don't use that crappy grey VW fabric coated crap, use the rubber coated acid resistant stuff Porsche came out with to solve the 914 fire recall effort.

All Djet and Ljet FI fuel pumps turn on and run for 3-5 secs to pressurize then shut off to prevent fires! Rewire the fuel pump to factory!!!
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
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