Supreme Court Orders CA to Release 30,000 Prisoners

[Ritter]

My little sister just graduated from SFSU. She's doing an internship with a non profit that takes up prisoner's rights. I'm not sure some prisoners deserve "rights" beyond being sheltered and fed, having forfeit them to indulge in the crime. But then again, I'm not sure most prisoners should be "in there" for what they've done. I know an awful lot of otherwise legal, upstanding people that do drugs recreationally.... You beat a woman or child, kill somebody, rape someone or diddle a kid, you're door has shut, in my book. But most of the crimes seem like they should be in the realm of rehabilitation, not lifetime lock up. And what about the bastids on wall street that have taken us all to the cleaners? All in all, I think the system is broken.

[Velokid1]

The person dedicated to the uncomfortable art of self-reflection can learn to take a mental snapshot of those tricky, fleeting flashes of Truth, and hold that snapshot up against their reality. Learn to catch themselves, and retrain themselves.

I know. Now. : )

Well, that makes one of us, my man. I'm definitely just starting to learn.

Cannabis encourages the art of self-reflection, does it not? Of course not all of the reflections and realizations are valid, but at least some self-reflection happens. With alcohol? Not so much.

Absolutely. Cannabis is an inhibitor, unlike alcohol and other drugs that suppress your inhibitions. People are more cautious and aware under the influence of cannabis. Admittedly, to a fault at times, hence the stereotypes about "paranoid stoners." Users become overly cautious precisely because cannabis makes you question every... little.... thing.... that passes before your eyes or flashes through your mind. And of course that includes questioning your every thought, your motivations, your true agenda. I am of the opinion that it's not a great way to spend your every waking hour, but it definitely serves as a great tool in moderation!

Sometimes I feel like the opposite of Love isn't Hate; it is Fear.

A very interesting observation. Please elaborate.

I don't know that I can. I don't know if I really know what the hell I'm talking about. Let's see how clumsy I look when I give it an earnest try...

Maybe Love isn't an emotion, but a way of being. When someone is full of Love, they are open to the world around them in a very gentle and very courageous way. There's nothing that requires more courage than does living with your heart and mind wide open. Because, ohmygosh! People, things, ideas can all get inside then! They muddy your perception of who you are. They cause your ego to slowly dissolve away. Scary shit. To be open to embracing people and things and Life, in spite of their good or bad effects on your concept of Me, maybe that is Love?

And if so, then Fear is the enemy of Love. Because Fear is what makes you recoil, tense up, close the doors to the outside. Fear makes you doubt your own ability to survive an onslaught of other people and things with your own idea of Me intact. So you find reasons to hate other people and things and vilify them, when really you're just looking for a justification for you having given in to your Fears and closed yourself off to the people and things around you. Fear makes you stop living in Love.

Something like that, though probably also nothing like that. I don't know that any of that explains what I'm really feeling.

[glasseye]

Peter. Right here. Right now. You are going to learn how to quote.

Sir! Yes Sir! I will correctly use the quote function from here on SIR!

With my apologies for my sloth, SIR.

[glasseye]

Sometimes I feel like the opposite of Love isn't Hate; it is Fear.

A very interesting observation. Please elaborate.

There's nothing that requires more courage than does living with your heart and mind wide open. Because, ohmygosh! People, things, ideas can all get inside then!

And that is the exact antithesis of "macho" behaviour. (something most men suffer at one time or another in some degree, IMHO) Something that scares the devil out of the conservative and closed-minded.

And if so, then Fear is the enemy of Love. Because Fear is what makes you recoil, tense up, close the doors to the outside. Fear makes you doubt your own ability to survive an onslaught of other people and things with your own idea of Me intact. So you find reasons to hate other people and things and vilify them, when really you're just looking for a justification for you having given in to your Fears and closed yourself off to the people and things around you. Fear makes you stop living in Love.

Well said. I agree. Not only is fear the enemy of critical thought, it's the enemy of open-heartedness. People afraid do not love.

Something like that, though probably also nothing like that. I don't know that any of that explains what I'm really feeling.

Something exactly like that. I understand exactly what you're saying. Trouble is, thinking with an open heart, with love, is not something that's taught, discussed or encouraged these days. Our loss.

It seems to me that the "free love" aspect of the sixties has been perverted to mean just free sexual love. If I recall correctly, at least some of the so-called "hippie" movement was about exactly what you're describing. Open-hearted thinking. Love, not fear.

That's why Colbert's "rally to keep the fear alive" was so perceptive. Some might say subversive.

[Lanval]

The cost of college is cheaper than incarceration. Getting tough on crime costs.


neal

Neal, I've argued this too. The problem is one of perception, I think.

If you send someone to get an education, you can't see them getting anything. If you see them sitting in jail, you can visually see your money being spent.

A related problem is the instability of education. You can't tell if it worked, often for years; there's no guarantee. With prison, there's a guarantee. Even if the guarantee is that we took a mildly screwed up person and re-formed them into a hardened, bitter criminal.

Education is much cheaper than prison, but less certain. People prefer certainty.

Mike

[Lanval]

The cost of college is cheaper than incarceration. Getting tough on crime costs.


neal

Neal, I've argued this too. The problem is one of perception, I think.

If you send someone to get an education, you can't see them getting anything. If you see them sitting in jail, you can visually see your money being spent.

A related problem is the instability of education. You can't tell if it worked, often for years; there's no guarantee. With prison, there's a guarantee. Even if the guarantee is that we took a mildly screwed up person and re-formed them into a hardened, bitter criminal.

Education is much cheaper than prison, but less certain. People prefer certainty.

Mike

[airkooledchris]

the cost of education is cheaper than prison, maybe, but while your completing your education you need still need food, clothing and a place to stay - which I doubt they are factoring in when they make that generic comparison.

not that I don't agree that education is a critical part of rehabilitation of every kind, just that the whole cost comparison thing is a little skewed and a little too idealistic in reality.

at any rate, I think anyone busted for simple possession charges should just be let out of prison if it's just for marijuana - but if it's for heroin then some sort of rehab and/or probation.

[ruckman101]

Drug use and abuse should be approached as a health problem, not criminal by definition. Then again, the health care system we have is as broken as our prison systems. Both from a lack of funding, and as workable models.

airkooledchris, you are right, cost of college doesn't factor in food, housing, transportation, utilities when thrown up against the cost of incarceration. I'd still wager on the uncertainty of education.

I understand the allure of results Lanval, I experience it. Capital budgets are sexy, operational budgets aren't. Wow, spent the money to upgrade to the latest hi-tech platform. Look, there's the expensive equipment, you can touch it, be proud, yep.

But operational? Can't we save money somewhere? Why do we need so many employees? You can't tangibly put your finger on the value of those expenditures. Yet without the people, the gear sits on a shelf gathering dust and is money down a black hole.


achh, blather. pzzzght. twitch
neal

[steve74baywin]

Drug use and abuse should be approached as a health problem, not criminal by definition. Then again, the health care system we have is as broken as our prison systems. Both from a lack of funding, and as workable models.

airkooledchris, you are right, cost of college doesn't factor in food, housing, transportation, utilities when thrown up against the cost of incarceration. I'd still wager on the uncertainty of education.

I understand the allure of results Lanval, I experience it. Capital budgets are sexy,

achh, blather. pzzzght. twitch
neal

It is complex.
Lead by example, set the example comes to mind.
Most of us agree there are many laws that could go away.
Let's say we reduce the prisoners to the hurt, kill steal only crowd.
Maybe if we as a country set the better example, even that crowd would be reduced.
Think of this, the country and gov, (the society as a whole) does put out some very crossed mixed signals, from jailing someone who uses a plant, to preemptive attacks with innocent by standers. Is there any wonder some kids think the can re acquisition your car for there use? If the Gov can violate your ownership of your body for something they see as good for them, is that not what a thieve also is doing?
With a reduced number of prisoners, we might be able to come up with a solution.

The drug aspect, drugs are made more attractive and are given power by making them illegal, and on the other hand people are also made to want them through TV ads. A big part of the drug problem would go away by fixing the above two.

[static]

I spent more than a year transporting freshly-released folk from California State Prisons to halfway houses. When I say "transported" that means that they were in the passenger seat and got to play with the radio but had to listen to my jokes.

None of these people (I transported both men and women) were innocent and none claimed to be. But many were in for what I would tern as "bullshit parole violations", a no-win game of getting sent back to prison for the most minor of errors. There are many, many serious, violent, crazy offenders in prison, but many are not any of the above and don't need to be in prison at $45,000 of my tax money a year.

Also, while the people that I worked with generally had convictions that involved drugs, it was never the only factor. The root cause was always a combination of poor childhoods, poor education, poor mental health and the profit involved from them either buying or selling drugs.

Stop the incentive to profit from drugs and only then can we address the other issues.

[Velokid1]

Stop the incentive to profit from drugs and only then can we address the other issues.

Will they ever understand this? Is it too obvious?

[glasseye]

Stop the incentive to profit from drugs and only then can we address the other issues.

Will they ever understand this? Is it too obvious?

Apparently yes - it is too obvious. Follow the money.


Meanwhile, in yesterday's Vancouver Sun:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/conte ... Litigation
(comparatively long, but interesting article on the "medical defense", Canada Health, and The Law)

[Lanval]

the cost of education is cheaper than prison, maybe, but while your completing your education you need still need food, clothing and a place to stay - which I doubt they are factoring in when they make that generic comparison.

not that I don't agree that education is a critical part of rehabilitation of every kind, just that the whole cost comparison thing is a little skewed and a little too idealistic in reality.

at any rate, I think anyone busted for simple possession charges should just be let out of prison if it's just for marijuana - but if it's for heroin then some sort of rehab and/or probation.

When I applied to the Stanford MA program, they estimated it costed about $50,000 all included, for one year ~ off campus housing, food, books, car, tuition and fees. That's about what it costs to keep someone in a secure prison.

I'm not saying that it's an exact tit-for-tat comparison. In fact, it'd be cheaper, because the money needs to be spent when they're in elementary, junior and senior high school. Reforming a 7 year old is a hell of a lot cheaper than incarcerating a 27 year old. That's how I think it'll work.

Best,

Mike