Yes, and these issues are open for debate. There are trends. Population is exploding in places, generally. No doubt. We need more resources if we expect that to be sustainable. That seems self-evident. We pollute. No doubt. These things are pretty self-evident. But, now if you wanna narrow it down to specific causes and effects, we now must ask experts in whatever those effects and causes are. Here's the rub: there is not enough expertise to make a definitive conclusion (wait for my conclusion on this concept below). <^ That is also self-evident. Anyone who says different is stretching the truth. Of course I am referring to the bane of all topics here. But RS 71 Westy gets that^. We really need to admit what we don't know, and stick with what we do know. One self-evident truth is: yes, we are populating, and pressuring the ecosystem(s) in myriad ways. We can winnow and sift those and determine what works and what we can do to mitigate those we do know. Some things can be done on a guess and still be fruitful endeavors. Others are very general, lack focus, certainty, yet they are oversold as a solution to something that might happen. We need to keep those latter ideas in mind, and let science continue its search for answers. They are not settled though. When people try to tell us they are settled, that is a red-flag. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know this. Politics can, and should, intervene in the scientific search only as it pertains to the search, and let the answers speak the volumes they can, if they are answered definitively. Some things can be answered definitively. Believe it or not. For example: if population outstrips resources, there is a problem. It could be shown with empirical evidence, in numerous cases I think. That's pretty simple: self-evident. With Global Warming, there's too many other variables to know what the outcome will be.
It's not settled. Is it good to practice caution? Obviously. But , those at the "forefront" are not sure what the outcome of global warming will be, or what the causes are. So, government needs only to be cautious. It's a huge issue. Needs to be discussed. But it's in its infancy, like so many other sciences. Government should take the back-seat as there are too many unknowns so far. Science will figure it out I hope. It has figured out a lot so far. But what we don't know is so much more than what we do.
Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
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turk
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."
"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero
"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero
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Ritter
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Well said, Lanval. Have you noticed how often Turk replies to Turk replies to Turk? Soon, he'll be quoting Turk, too. Giggle.Lanval wrote:And I'll add to that about your assessment: "It's been pretty good around here..."
Yes, if by that you mean you've driven off most of the intelligent thoughtful people and left behind a few sycophants. Funny how you have well over 2000 posts, and nearly 90% of them are in free speech. If you left this little corner once in awhile you'd notice how a much larger variety of people are posting in other areas. They avoid this spot, and your ignorant, strident ramblings. Nice job killing a once interesting forum.
L.
Here's some fun. A photo of ice conditions currently. Should be solid.
And then this (it should be greater than 80% at this time of year as well):
But I'm sure this has happened all before. Just maybe not while humans have been present. Sleep well, all.
1978 Westfalia 2.0 FI
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turk
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
That's scary man. I don't know what to say. Ritter, you really changed my whole outlook with this. Thanks for the "sleep" bit. Yeah, you are gonna have a hard time sleeping too. Maybe we can call each other in the night to talk about it.
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."
"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero
"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero
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turk
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Ritter wrote:Well said, Lanval. Have you noticed how often Turk replies to Turk replies to Turk? Soon, he'll be quoting Turk, too. Giggle.Lanval wrote:And I'll add to that about your assessment: "It's been pretty good around here..."
Yes, if by that you mean you've driven off most of the intelligent thoughtful people and left behind a few sycophants. Funny how you have well over 2000 posts, and nearly 90% of them are in free speech. If you left this little corner once in awhile you'd notice how a much larger variety of people are posting in other areas. They avoid this spot, and your ignorant, strident ramblings. Nice job killing a once interesting forum.
L.
Here's some fun. A photo of ice conditions currently. Should be solid.
And then this (it should be greater than 80% at this time of year as well):
But I'm sure this has happened all before. Just maybe not while humans have been present. Sleep well, all.
And you live in California, where there "shouldn't" be so many idiots, but guess what?
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."
"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero
"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero
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ruckman101
- Lord God King Bwana
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
And I live in Oregon, and you live in Illinois. I can't imagine Chicago being shy on the idiot category of population census. It seems epidemic.
Wow, riverfront denizens all along the Mississippi river basin are nervous. Army Corps of Engineers breaching levees, dikes, berms to save the greater over the tragedy of the few.
Nasty, too much water, to not enough in Texas, very dry March, wildfires, very bad. $2 mil a day for Texas to fight the fires. Gov "I'm Gonna Make Texas a New Country" Perry is whining that Obama is withholding the Fed disaster money and responding quicker to tornado victims.
Oh, and that arctic ice melt-off and sea level rise? Much worse than models predicted.
It's ok though, not in your backyard. Until I have to move in.
neal
Wow, riverfront denizens all along the Mississippi river basin are nervous. Army Corps of Engineers breaching levees, dikes, berms to save the greater over the tragedy of the few.
Nasty, too much water, to not enough in Texas, very dry March, wildfires, very bad. $2 mil a day for Texas to fight the fires. Gov "I'm Gonna Make Texas a New Country" Perry is whining that Obama is withholding the Fed disaster money and responding quicker to tornado victims.
Oh, and that arctic ice melt-off and sea level rise? Much worse than models predicted.
It's ok though, not in your backyard. Until I have to move in.
neal
The slipper has no teeth.
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flyawaydesigns
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Geez.....I read most of the posts on IAC and seldom do I chime in. When I do, I try to stay on topic and not form or express my judgments about the opinions of others. This is is an exceptional topic and I feel compelled to comment.
These are in no specific order:
Turk says "I don't just toss in snarky half-witted replies" - Not true, they are in most every post I have read of yours.
Lanval says "Turk ~ point blank: there's nothing intellectual or interesting about what you do here... it's pure and simple shouting your point, and shouting down others who try to suggest you are not the sole fount of wisdom on the IAC." - Sooo true.
Lanval says "Yes, if by that you mean you've driven off most of the intelligent thoughtful people and left behind a few sycophants." - True again, not that I think I am some sort of intellectual, but 99% of Turk's fucking insane, uninformed, uber-right wing talking point and faux-elaborately worded rants make my blood boil.
Turk says "I only discuss what I think I know." - That's the problem. The operative word is THINK. Critical thinking can only be accomplished when your mind is open. Yours is closed from what I can tell.
Turk says "Politics can, and should, intervene in the scientific search only as it pertains to the search.." - No. Never, never, never, never. True science is objective and speaks for itself. It should NEVER EVER be filtered through, influenced or co-opted by politics OR religion. Political or religious intervention of science can only result in biased scientific data that will be useless to anyone and has the potential to do more harm than good. An simple analogy would he doing an scientific experiment using contaminated test tubes.....the results would be wrong and misleading.
Turk says "Of course there's "problems", but look at it another way, every problem has a solution." - Simply NOT true. Not every problem has a solution and as an engineer, I have been faced with this. Sometimes shit happens and there is NOTHING that can be done to solve it. In this thread discussing our collective scientific discovery of indications of climate change it seems we all agree that the change is happening, but we argue over whether it's natural or manmade. In doing so, we are missing the point and this is delaying action. Manmade or a natural event - either way we need to act now if we want to counter the effect. The tipping point is near and once we pass it, the changes will come at a logrithmic rate and no amount of science/technology or human action will be able to stop it. The end will become inevitable and unavoidable. Endless debate and inaction will only hasten our run-up to the tipping point....then the shit will happen and there will be NOTHING that can be done to solve it.
Turk says "No one really thinks: "hey fuck it, we'll just keep mining and burning, and growing our population ad infinitum, and all will be good, and everyone will better off (humans, fuck the other species)" - OH??? The coal, natural gas and petroluum corporations sure as fuck do. They say fuck the humans and fuck those other species - we need more profit! And the Supreme Court now says they are "people" and they "speak" with their bajillions of $$$ and they are the ones funding the counter "faux scientific" studies that muddy everything.
Turk says "But I believe just that capability to look down at it has steadily seeped into the collective consciousness and we have fooled ourselves into thinking we are demigods looking down at a "fragile sphere". It's quite the opposite. That fragile sphere is laughing its self silly. Its sides are hurtin. Tears are coming to it's glee-stricken eyes. Humans are cocksure in their supposed knowledge of what they are doing to the old planet." - Despite what you think the earth is a "fragile sphere" with a finite amount of resources and a finite life. No one can "make" more new resources. That's a physical impossibility. We can only make something new from the resources we have OR use previously underutilized or previously untapped resources that exist now. The earth is self contained. Nothing on earth has left the planet and nothing new has been added. There is exactly the same amount of water on the planet now as there was millions and millions of years ago. The same goes for carbon. It may change form, location or shape, but it is always the same amount. That glass of water you drink still has a few molecules of dinosaur piss in it. And mankind has a bad track record when it somes to managing resources. Man sees the resources as "free for the taking" and proceeds to use up everything around them until it's gone. Good examples of this are passenger pigeons, giant auks, dodo birds, and the "virgin forests" found in America when the pilgrims arrived. It only took 350 years to reduce the virgin forest to less than 4% remaining and they would still like to harvest that too if it weren't protected.. I don't believe the earth feels "glee-strcken" at all. If it could talk I think it would be saying "These sucking parasites on my skin are fucking me up and I need to get them all off me soon so I can heal the disease and damage they have inflicted in the tiny time they have been here".
Nuff said for now. As this is the "free speach" forum, I expect to take some hits on this. Turk, It's not personal at all, I just don't agree with 99% of what you say. I just see the world differently than you.
Rick
These are in no specific order:
Turk says "I don't just toss in snarky half-witted replies" - Not true, they are in most every post I have read of yours.
Lanval says "Turk ~ point blank: there's nothing intellectual or interesting about what you do here... it's pure and simple shouting your point, and shouting down others who try to suggest you are not the sole fount of wisdom on the IAC." - Sooo true.
Lanval says "Yes, if by that you mean you've driven off most of the intelligent thoughtful people and left behind a few sycophants." - True again, not that I think I am some sort of intellectual, but 99% of Turk's fucking insane, uninformed, uber-right wing talking point and faux-elaborately worded rants make my blood boil.
Turk says "I only discuss what I think I know." - That's the problem. The operative word is THINK. Critical thinking can only be accomplished when your mind is open. Yours is closed from what I can tell.
Turk says "Politics can, and should, intervene in the scientific search only as it pertains to the search.." - No. Never, never, never, never. True science is objective and speaks for itself. It should NEVER EVER be filtered through, influenced or co-opted by politics OR religion. Political or religious intervention of science can only result in biased scientific data that will be useless to anyone and has the potential to do more harm than good. An simple analogy would he doing an scientific experiment using contaminated test tubes.....the results would be wrong and misleading.
Turk says "Of course there's "problems", but look at it another way, every problem has a solution." - Simply NOT true. Not every problem has a solution and as an engineer, I have been faced with this. Sometimes shit happens and there is NOTHING that can be done to solve it. In this thread discussing our collective scientific discovery of indications of climate change it seems we all agree that the change is happening, but we argue over whether it's natural or manmade. In doing so, we are missing the point and this is delaying action. Manmade or a natural event - either way we need to act now if we want to counter the effect. The tipping point is near and once we pass it, the changes will come at a logrithmic rate and no amount of science/technology or human action will be able to stop it. The end will become inevitable and unavoidable. Endless debate and inaction will only hasten our run-up to the tipping point....then the shit will happen and there will be NOTHING that can be done to solve it.
Turk says "No one really thinks: "hey fuck it, we'll just keep mining and burning, and growing our population ad infinitum, and all will be good, and everyone will better off (humans, fuck the other species)" - OH??? The coal, natural gas and petroluum corporations sure as fuck do. They say fuck the humans and fuck those other species - we need more profit! And the Supreme Court now says they are "people" and they "speak" with their bajillions of $$$ and they are the ones funding the counter "faux scientific" studies that muddy everything.
Turk says "But I believe just that capability to look down at it has steadily seeped into the collective consciousness and we have fooled ourselves into thinking we are demigods looking down at a "fragile sphere". It's quite the opposite. That fragile sphere is laughing its self silly. Its sides are hurtin. Tears are coming to it's glee-stricken eyes. Humans are cocksure in their supposed knowledge of what they are doing to the old planet." - Despite what you think the earth is a "fragile sphere" with a finite amount of resources and a finite life. No one can "make" more new resources. That's a physical impossibility. We can only make something new from the resources we have OR use previously underutilized or previously untapped resources that exist now. The earth is self contained. Nothing on earth has left the planet and nothing new has been added. There is exactly the same amount of water on the planet now as there was millions and millions of years ago. The same goes for carbon. It may change form, location or shape, but it is always the same amount. That glass of water you drink still has a few molecules of dinosaur piss in it. And mankind has a bad track record when it somes to managing resources. Man sees the resources as "free for the taking" and proceeds to use up everything around them until it's gone. Good examples of this are passenger pigeons, giant auks, dodo birds, and the "virgin forests" found in America when the pilgrims arrived. It only took 350 years to reduce the virgin forest to less than 4% remaining and they would still like to harvest that too if it weren't protected.. I don't believe the earth feels "glee-strcken" at all. If it could talk I think it would be saying "These sucking parasites on my skin are fucking me up and I need to get them all off me soon so I can heal the disease and damage they have inflicted in the tiny time they have been here".
Nuff said for now. As this is the "free speach" forum, I expect to take some hits on this. Turk, It's not personal at all, I just don't agree with 99% of what you say. I just see the world differently than you.
Rick
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glasseye
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Thenk yew.
"This war will pay for itself."
Paul Wolfowitz, speaking of Iraq.
Paul Wolfowitz, speaking of Iraq.
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RussellK
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Pssst. Hey Peter. Did L called us sycophants?glasseye wrote:Thenk yew.
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ruckman101
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deschutestrout
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
=D> and =D> and =D> Thanks Rick! Hit the nail right smack-dab on the head! But be careful...he's a moderator 
"You're not always obligated to paint an outhouse." Ruckman 2011
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flyawaydesigns
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Got it. This is the free speech forum and it's not a personal thing at all so this is NOT intended to be an attack of any sort. I just see things differently. And I am open minded to other's opinions.......but that doesn't mean I have to believe them.
And having an angry moderator would do me no good.
And having an angry moderator would do me no good.
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deschutestrout
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Don't worry Rick....go ahead...speak your mind...join the rest of many who are hoping to open his mind to different opinions...at least respecting them...that'd be progress in itself... Haven't seen anyone break the ice yet...maybe you canflyawaydesigns wrote:Got it. And having an angry moderator would do me no good.
"You're not always obligated to paint an outhouse." Ruckman 2011
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flyawaydesigns
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Thanx Mark. I will speak my mind when I need to. I finally had read enough of the diatribe and felt I NEEDED to get a few issues off my chest before my head exploded.
But you know, despite the differences, I am thinking he might be an interesting one to drink a few beers with and discuss some issues in the process.
But you know, despite the differences, I am thinking he might be an interesting one to drink a few beers with and discuss some issues in the process.
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deschutestrout
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Ditto.flyawaydesigns wrote:But you know, despite the differences, I am thinking he might be an interesting one to drink a few beers with and discuss some issues in the process.
Time limit to discussion...10 minutes...then we talk VW, camping, outdoors, favorite beers, music...etc. 
"You're not always obligated to paint an outhouse." Ruckman 2011
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flyawaydesigns
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Re: Spring Comes Early To The Arctic
Agreed!!