Whither Libya?

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Intervene in Libya?

Yes
6
29%
No
15
71%
 
Total votes: 21

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Quadratrückseite
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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by Quadratrückseite » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:02 am

Amskeptic wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote:Innocents are being slaughtered right now in Sudan, Ivory Coast, Congo, etc., and we do nothing. We can't save them all. In the long run, fewer will die, and liberty will have a better chance of taking root, if the Libyans do this on their own.
Oil is the difference.
Dick Cheney

I have no trouble at all with the thought that the international community can pull together to launch a multi-pronged response to Quaddafi, freezing assets, hard parts trade, targeted military disablement, come on, we are not stupid, we can and must help people trying to get free of assholes!
I listened to the President's speech last night. I thought it was actually quite good. And without coming out and saying it directly, he basically said what this was about...oil. He said the word "interests" several times in the speech - put oil in front of that and it explains why we acted in Libya, and not in Darfur or any of the other areas where massacres are occuring, and have been for years.
For generations, the United States of America has played a unique role as an anchor of global security and advocate for human freedom. Mindful of the risks and costs of military action, we are naturally reluctant to use force to solve the world's many challenges. But when our interests and values are at stake, we have a responsibility to act. That is what happened in Libya over the course of these last six weeks.
---
In fact, much of the debate in Washington has put forward a false choice when it comes to Libya. On the one hand, some question why America should intervene at all - even in limited ways - in this distant land. They argue that there are many places in the world where innocent civilians face brutal violence at the hands of their government, and America should not be expected to police the world, particularly when we have so many pressing concerns here at home.

It is true that America cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. And given the costs and risks of intervention, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. But that cannot be an argument for never acting on behalf of what's right.
---
Let me close by addressing what this action says about the use of America's military power, and America's broader leadership in the world, under my presidency.

As Commander-in-Chief, I have no greater responsibility than keeping this country safe. And no decision weighs on me more than when to deploy our men and women in uniform. I have made it clear that I will never hesitate to use our military swiftly, decisively, and unilaterally when necessary to defend our people, our homeland, our allies, and our core interests. That is why we are going after al Qaeda wherever they seek a foothold. That is why we continue to fight in Afghanistan, even as we have ended our combat mission in Iraq and removed more than 100,000 troops from that country.

There will be times, though, when our safety is not directly threatened, but our interests and values are. Sometimes, the course of history poses challenges that threaten our common humanity and common security - responding to natural disasters, for example; or preventing genocide and keeping the peace; ensuring regional security, and maintaining the flow of commerce. These may not be America's problems alone, but they are important to us, and they are problems worth solving. And in these circumstances, we know that the United States, as the world's most powerful nation, will often be called upon to help
Until the Western world comes up with a viable alternative to Middle Eastern Oil, we will continue to "intervene" in these situations. I am all for helping out people who yearn for freedom, but I'd love to see us do it in a country that doesn't have oil. It's not really in our interest to do so though, sadly.
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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:16 am

turk wrote:I doubt anything other than complete regime change, and long U.S. involvement will be any good there. It's unfortunate but true. It will be like Iraq, ya' know, "Mission Accomplished" and we are still there for years. That's how it goes in these places. It's globalism. It's geo-politics. The West has to stay involved. Otherwise, the places fall apart. The downside is we are the Great Satan to these people. That's the way it goes. We give them money for their oil, and their tribes and Sultans and Ayatollahs are all in chaos and war, and most of their people poor. Right, it's our fault. Okaaaaay. Dubai.
The "places" are falling apart because of our involvement these last decades supporting the regimes of those "places".


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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by turk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:42 am

And getting involved in a civil war with no clear objective seems like the right thing to do. Funny how this works. Quadaffy was never the puppet of the U.S. that I am aware of. If this was a republican president, and Obama was a junior U.S. senator, d'ya think he would criticize getting involved in a war that the U.S. had no direct interest in and was not threatened by? I can answer that for you if you like. Don't believe what Obama says about this war. We will be in it for years. How else are we going to insure the "Libyan people" get a transition to a fair, democratic system of government? D'ya think Iraq had anything to do with the allies' decision to intervene in this civil war?
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:48 am

Quadratrückseite wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote:Innocents are being slaughtered right now in Sudan, Ivory Coast, Congo, etc., and we do nothing. We can't save them all. In the long run, fewer will die, and liberty will have a better chance of taking root, if the Libyans do this on their own.
Oil is the difference.
Dick Cheney

I have no trouble at all with the thought that the international community can pull together to launch a multi-pronged response to Quaddafi, freezing assets, hard parts trade, targeted military disablement, come on, we are not stupid, we can and must help people trying to get free of assholes!
I listened to the President's speech last night. I thought it was actually quite good. And without coming out and saying it directly, he basically said what this was about...oil. He said the word "interests" several times in the speech - put oil in front of that and it explains why we acted in Libya, and not in Darfur or any of the other areas where massacres are occuring, and have been for years.
For generations, the United States of America has played a unique role as an anchor of global security and advocate for human freedom. Mindful of the risks and costs of military action, we are naturally reluctant to use force to solve the world's many challenges. But when our interests and values are at stake, we have a responsibility to act. That is what happened in Libya over the course of these last six weeks.
---
In fact, much of the debate in Washington has put forward a false choice when it comes to Libya. On the one hand, some question why America should intervene at all - even in limited ways - in this distant land. They argue that there are many places in the world where innocent civilians face brutal violence at the hands of their government, and America should not be expected to police the world, particularly when we have so many pressing concerns here at home.

It is true that America cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. And given the costs and risks of intervention, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. But that cannot be an argument for never acting on behalf of what's right.
---
Let me close by addressing what this action says about the use of America's military power, and America's broader leadership in the world, under my presidency.

As Commander-in-Chief, I have no greater responsibility than keeping this country safe. And no decision weighs on me more than when to deploy our men and women in uniform. I have made it clear that I will never hesitate to use our military swiftly, decisively, and unilaterally when necessary to defend our people, our homeland, our allies, and our core interests. That is why we are going after al Qaeda wherever they seek a foothold. That is why we continue to fight in Afghanistan, even as we have ended our combat mission in Iraq and removed more than 100,000 troops from that country.

There will be times, though, when our safety is not directly threatened, but our interests and values are. Sometimes, the course of history poses challenges that threaten our common humanity and common security - responding to natural disasters, for example; or preventing genocide and keeping the peace; ensuring regional security, and maintaining the flow of commerce. These may not be America's problems alone, but they are important to us, and they are problems worth solving. And in these circumstances, we know that the United States, as the world's most powerful nation, will often be called upon to help
Until the Western world comes up with a viable alternative to Middle Eastern Oil, we will continue to "intervene" in these situations. I am all for helping out people who yearn for freedom, but I'd love to see us do it in a country that doesn't have oil. It's not really in our interest to do so though, sadly.
Another compelling reason to shift to clean renewable energies.


neal
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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by Quadratrückseite » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:19 am

ruckman101 wrote:Another compelling reason to shift to clean renewable energies.


neal
I'm with ya there. Seems like everytime I see some electric car offered though, the cost is way too much, or the range sucks. It's almost like they set them up to fail, and then say, "Well, we offered an electric car, but no one would buy them." I think if the American public was offered an affordable car (maybe the Nissan Leaf will be closest, but at $32k base before tax credit that's still a lot...the Volt's at $41k base I think...and there's price gouging going on the new electrics: http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-cars/ ... -leaf/3709 ) they would buy them. And if we did enough of that, maybe we could start to wean from the oil teat.

I'd love to see an electric car that could be charge/be recharged with solar panels to minimize the amount of plug in time. I would think the technology is there, or almost there, but I don't know enough about it.
"The bus is the real talisman. It's the thing that runs through all of this history. It's not a thing anybody owns or controls. No matter how peeved you get with people, the bus always makes your heart jump. Everybody was attached to it."
- Ken Kesey

Steve
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Amskeptic
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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:50 pm

Let's not too cynically give short shrift to the humanitarian aspect of this engagement.

For the first time in history, we were asked directly to assist Arabian resistance and were given permission by the Arab League to help, with the imprimatur of a United Nations resolution.

We have declared with clarity that we shall not set foot on their lands, again at their request, and have declared that their goals are theirs to fight for, and their frozen assets are being held in trust for them. This, folks, is very different from the arrogant unilateral bungling and bilking and blatant ripping off of Halliburton in Iraq.

With the psychotic hatred and obstinacy of Obama's opposition, it is a wonder that we get anything done around here. Sarah Palin (who the fuck gives that idiot an audience??) babbled that Obama was giving comfort to Gaddafi and "seemed wishy-washy" only because she cannot comprehend nuance. I am damn sick of the stupidity that passes for public discourse.
Colin
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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by turk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:43 pm

Iraq was a humanitarian crisis too. I don't know if you ever saw what that regime was responsible for over decades as Hussein was in charge there. He rolled tanks over LIVE people in their towns in the northern provinces (Kurds) in display to intimidate the community, and used chemical weapons against "Marsh Arabs" subsisting in rural Southern Iraq (his OWN PEOPLE), AFTER GULF WAR 1. I think George W. Bush made considerable efforts to get a consensus BEFORE the initial operation on IRAQ. There was consensus in the political sphere both in America and internationally BEFORE 9-11 that this was not a good situation. I could dig up plenty of stuff on that. Al Gore pleaded for action in 1992.
This war (in Libya) has some parallels, but it is different. I'm not against it but I didn't put my opinion in the poll. What is the end-game though. That wasn't made clear. And still isn't. I think George W. Bush was clearer from the start. So, for what that's worth, you shouldn't claim the Iraq War was a covert situation with no reasons other than oil, yet this is purely humanitarian. This will also be no simple kinetic military action. What happens when the next Arab revolution in the streets gets bloody? Well, I guess we will see. I hope Europe takes some of the heavy lifting now because they have more at stake. I think it will end up we do most of the "Dirtywork" again. That's how it looks to me.
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:02 pm

Saddam gassed the Shiites and Kurds in 1988 at the tail end of the Iran/Iraq war when Iran was working with them to make inroads in the North. Iraq was our ally at the time, and the US fully supported Saddam's assertion that Iran was actually responsible for the gassing for many years after.

I don't believe Saddam was gassing folks after the first gulf war. The US waves it's humanitarianism every time, but takes action when US interests are at stake.

Libya is as humanitarian as I have ever seen the US get.



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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by turk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:28 pm

The Marsh Arabs AFTER the 1st Gulf War. Saddam's Killing Fields. Southern Iraq. This also showed torture and mutilation, not to mention systematic genocide. Have you seen Lessons of Darkness by Herzog. Brutal. AFTER the 1st Gulf War.
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:46 pm

And the US let it happen. Where was our humanitarian principles there? Oops, our interests out-weighed our concern. Time to go home.


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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by turk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:55 pm

That's one good reason for the second Gulf War. Everything is up to the U.S. as you imply. Can't win then can you? You go to war, you're criticized. You don't, you're held responsible. What do you want? You rather have Saddam still in power I presume? What's the answer? It ain't easy is it?
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:18 pm

Excuse me, I have never implied that everything is up to the US.


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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by turk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:37 pm

When the "U.S. let it happen", that would imply everything that happens is the U.S. responsibility. I know we should have gone all the way and ousted Saddaam the first time. It was a mistake not to in my opinion. Of course some people think we should have never gone in in the first place. But as you said, he was brutalizing his own people in '88 before Desert Storm. What's the answer? Not easy is it.
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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Quadratrückseite
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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by Quadratrückseite » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:31 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Let's not too cynically give short shrift to the humanitarian aspect of this engagement.

For the first time in history, we were asked directly to assist Arabian resistance and were given permission by the Arab League to help, with the imprimatur of a United Nations resolution.

We have declared with clarity that we shall not set foot on their lands, again at their request, and have declared that their goals are theirs to fight for, and their frozen assets are being held in trust for them. This, folks, is very different from the arrogant unilateral bungling and bilking and blatant ripping off of Halliburton in Iraq.

With the psychotic hatred and obstinacy of Obama's opposition, it is a wonder that we get anything done around here. Sarah Palin (who the fuck gives that idiot an audience??) babbled that Obama was giving comfort to Gaddafi and "seemed wishy-washy" only because she cannot comprehend nuance. I am damn sick of the stupidity that passes for public discourse.
Colin
I am pleased that we are helping out a people to escape a dictator they have been under for 40 years - however, at roughly 1 million per Tomahawk missile we've spent about $550 million so far on another country's civil war.
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/03/2 ... n-mission/
I find it interesting that we always seem to find a way to help people when there is something to possibly gain other than freedom for the oppressed. We see an opportunity to get in on those oil reserves maybe? I'm not bashing Obama - but to me he seems to be caving in to the military industrial complex. And why aren't we helping out a region like Darfur, who have been suffering ethnic cleansing by Arabs for years - sanctioned by their own leader?
"The bus is the real talisman. It's the thing that runs through all of this history. It's not a thing anybody owns or controls. No matter how peeved you get with people, the bus always makes your heart jump. Everybody was attached to it."
- Ken Kesey

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Amskeptic
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Re: Whither Libya?

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:21 pm

turk wrote: you shouldn't claim the Iraq War was a covert situation with no reasons other than oil, yet this is purely humanitarian.
I DIDN'T!!!! You have GOT to stop having speculative conversations with imaginary "opponents" and scurrilously smear others here with those simple-minded Faux News assumptions.

I claimed that Halliburton and Cheney and Bush had intense pre-emptive intentions going back to Kissinger's and Cheney's Real-Politik analyses of 1977.
I never claimed that it was a covert situation.

We were certainly more crippled by our own unethical foundations in Iraq, after all, we had supplied Saddam with much of his arsenal. We declared him a "friend" before we declared him an "enemy". Immorality muddies the waters, doesn't it?

At least Reagan had previously clarified our relationship with Qadaffi, good for him. We look less hypocritical in Libya. This operation does have moral clarity thus far, and it may offer benefits down the road as the Middle East struggles to evolve. The U.S. will be remembered as stepping up to the plate. Here's hopin'. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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