About my avatar or A new can of worms....

[zblair]

First, here's the thread in question:

http://www.sluggoproductions.com/iac/vi ... .php?t=733

I decided to move the ensuing discussion of whether or not my avatar was appropriate to this forum in order to continue this discussion. I did write and then did receive responses from both Colin and Sluggo. Since this is their site, they have the right to tell me if they believe that I have posted something inappropriate. I don't have a problem with that. However, what I do have a problem with is inconsistency about what is obscene and what isn't. I believe that your take on what is considered "unacceptable" should be CLEARLY delineated, as right now, at least in practice, it is NOT.

Case in point:

(Taken from the other thread:)

If we want VW kids to bond with their VW parents (we do) while perusing this VW forum, I think we can all extend a welcome by not spewing swear words at them.

I'd like your take then on the following smilies that VW kids and their VW parents can now see perusing these forums:



I'd say these smilies were questionable, yet they are permitted. Why is that?

What about Sluggo's avatar flipping the bird? I haven't looked at all the avatars that all of the members have, but there's bound to be at least one that might be considered obscene or at the very least sexist. I am not about pointing that out personally as being offensive, but I am simply saying, if you are going to hold one person to a standard, then imho the standard should apply across the board in order to be fair to all.

Ok, here's some thoughts:

When you begin to limit what people can do in a forum based on 'how someone might react' or 'what someone might see', then where is the freedom of expression? Where is the freedom of speech? I am truly not trying to be an ass about this, but I have forums I visit regarding social issues and step-parenting and I can tell you that language in those forums (for the most part) is not stifled. But then the intended audience is adult by nature and design. This is the first time I have ever seen someone post "a child might see what's on your screen" in 4+ years of writing for and posting in online forums.

I guess I am wondering with all of the images, etc., in the media, how does an "offended parent" manage to keep his or her children from seeing or hearing everything out there? One thing I know from my experience of being in school M-F, in practice most teens (in particular) curse far more than I ever have or probably will.

One final thought to you Colin: Jeffrey mentioned to me that one of the reasons this website was started was because of your "freedom of speech" being squashed, deleted or unceremoniously edited. Aside from the fact that you and Randy own this domain and/or will own the next incarnation, where is there a difference between those actions on TS and this?

I am really asking here.

Let's express our opinions here about this issue please so that we can all go forward knowing what's acceptable.

[Amskeptic]

[I'll reply with our last PM exchange]

If you decide that you want to censor my avatar, then I have to ask, what about Sluggo's flipping the bird?

I won't be censoring your avatar. I will share with you the observations of others, my own observations, and our hopes here. I have asked for avatar changes from several members, including Sluggo.

What about the following smilies:
<snip>

I pretty much hate them. I bitched about them from the get-go. I liked the simplicity of the first few emoticons at theSamba. Now we are in typical American over-the-top excess.

I'd say they were at least as questionable Colin. I haven't looked at all the avatars that all of the members have, but there's probably at least one that might be considered obscene or at the very least sexist but I am not about pointing that out personally as being offensive. I am simply saying, if you are going to hold one person to a standard, then imho the standard should apply across the board in order to be fair to all.

To the best of my ability, I do apply the same standard to rich variations in borderline avatar and photoshop creativity.

1. Is the audience for this website meant to include children?

Yes.

2. When you begin to limit what people can do in a forum based on 'how someone might react' then where is the freedom of expression?

I have taken pains to explicate that our free speech is about *your* opinions, observations, ideas. It is not about dragging in the flotsam from all over the www. That is why I had broached the possibility that we dispense with outside images all together in the Free Speech forum, since we had some links to utter pornography posted here in the beginning. *Your* photography/images would be welcome of course.
Please distinguish the difference between your immediate individual input and a gif billboard which is spewing 24/7 the same thing over and over. The former is fresh from your soul, the latter is "advertising." I am fiercely protective of the former and damn sick and tired of the latter.

I guess I am wondering with all of the images, etc., in the media, how does vwlover77 keep his children from seeing everything out there?

I don't know, but you might want to give parents of young children a fighting chance by not bringing the adult content into every nook and cranny of his online experience. I think of how proud IFBWax's little 2/4 yr old girls would be to see their pictures in here and how annoying it would be to get distracted by adult content.

in practice most teens (in particular) curse far more than I ever have or probably will.

Oh hell yeah, I am not interested in shielding human psyches that have developed to a conscious-of-self level. But if I show Cindy's 6 year-old around this site, I don't want her to see that stuff. When you navigate out of a page, there is a slight pause, your avatar can freeze on "cunt" while the dial-up slowly moves you away from the page.

Is there any place left where we can share our personal thoughts, perceptions, ideas, opinions, directly?
Colin

_________________

[zblair]

Is there any place left where we can share our personal thoughts, perceptions, ideas, opinions, directly?

Colin

My answer to that would be among friends or lovers, those whom we value Colin. Pets would be a close second for us.

[covelo]

It's kind of a weird avatar, but I don't see how it is obscene. As far as I can see the woman isn't doing anything kinky with that anchor, but maybe I'm missing something.

[Amskeptic]

It's kind of a weird avatar, but I don't see how it is obscene. As far as I can see the woman isn't doing anything kinky with that anchor, but maybe I'm missing something.

Very Funny covelo. Musta come late to the party.
Colin

[dingo]

shielding kids from what ? some letters and words ? We adults sit on our high-horse in our ivory-tower, glass houses and tell kids what they should and shouldnt see and what they should and shouldnt smoke etc..etc.. What the hell do we know ? Kids can see right thru the pretenses. We try to shield them from this and that and steer them this way and that way, and control and manipulate..and then we wonder why when they get to teen-hood, they are so hell bent on breaking the rules and laying their hands on whatever hallucinogens they can find....

[Amskeptic]

shielding kids from what ? some letters and words ? We adults sit on our high-horse in our ivory-tower, glass houses and tell kids what they should and shouldnt see and what they should and shouldnt smoke etc....

Shielding your young kids is honorable and necessary. Many people forget the vulnerability of young childhood. Try this letters and words vignette with your third grader who tripped at the doorway:
"hey you little spastic, where'd you learn to walk?"
"Fuck you, dad."
Tell me that the words here wouldn't hurt both ways.

Letters and words ARE powerful, it is part of our human heritage it is a beautiful thing to watch a child learn the language. So some here have school age kids, let them enjoy childhood for a while and see if they can hang on to some vestige of a simpler time when decency was the norm.

When your child becomes self-aware, then you can guide them through the thickening thickets of the coarse world with hopefully some semblance of dignity. They *do* look at your example regardless of their carefully crafted nonchalance.

I would like this site to offer a space where kids/parents can explore. I see no problem whatsoever in offering a place where adults can hang out and exchange the salty riffs. . . but give the kids and adults who want to keep it mellow a clean space too. There is room for both but the boundaries will be firm. . . uh, I hope
Colin

[chitwnvw]

I think that as long as kids aren't made to feel afraid, that they are ok. A word isn't going to strick fear in them. They are curious, what's that, what's that mean. Got rid of our TV's recently and they are striking out finding ways to amuse themselves. They are remarkable creatures.

As far as exploring the site, my kids love the buses. Eden really likes that I use her for the Avatar. I don't think they care much for the discussion of repro head quality, and the like.... It'll come, I hope.

[spiffy]

I liked your avatar. But I can also see the other side of the coin as well. If it were me, I would not worry about my avatar and get out and try to meet some of the fine folks around on this forum, I am pretty sure that the discussion wouldn't be about 'avatars' but about sharing our collective experiences verbaly to hopefully better understand one another and who knows, make a difference?

Question:

When did the word or "thing" avatar get placed into our common vocabulary? (just curious)

[zblair]

I liked your avatar. But I can also see the other side of the coin as well. If it were me, I would not
worry about my avatar and get out and try to meet some of the fine folks around on this forum, I am
pretty sure that the discussion wouldn't be about 'avatars' but about sharing our collective experiences
verbally to hopefully better understand one another and who knows, make a difference?

Hey Spiffy, meeting people and asking questions was what I have been trying to do brother. Slowly.
IRL (as well as online), I do tend to give people the benefit of the doubt unless they give me pause
to think otherwise.

Question:

When did the word or "thing" avatar get placed into our common vocabulary? (just curious)

If by 'word or "thing" avatar" you mean the avatar I replaced today? I've had it since 8 Oct when I joined this site.
Some people have more issues than others in their lives and those issues sometimes become apparent in the
context of an online forum's posts.

Thanks for your response

[vdubyah73]

ZBlair, It wasn't so much a matter of free speech as it was a matter of doing the right thing. I've said it before and I'll say it again " free speech has it's responsibilities " . You'll get arrested for yelling " FIRE "in a movie theater ya know.

Bill

[zblair]

ZBlair, It wasn't so much a matter of free speech as it was a matter of doing the right thing. I've said it before and I'll say it again
" free speech has it's responsabilities " . You'll get arrested for yelling "FIRE" in a movie theater ya know.

Bill

Vdubya73: Careful there; "Doing the right thing" is subjective at best. "Doing the right thing" according to WHOM is what I am saying.
That friend, is a whole 'nother topic...

If you are going to split hairs, then I will ask you; why do you think that all of the (questionable) smilies in my initial post on this thread
are still in this forum? Will they be removed? I highly doubt it. Do you know if anyone has (other than Colin) expressed a distaste for them?
I'm curious to know that.

On that same tack, if my avatar had a show of (female) T&A, do you think anybody would have said anything about family values to me?
I highly doubt it. Why? Because in Amerika the double-standard is alive and well. That friend, is also a whole 'nother topic...

Since Colin has expressed his distaste with those smilies, I can only hope in the next incarnation of this (IAC) website that they will not
exist. To be "consistent" that is.

Thanks for your response.

[spiffy]

I liked your avatar. But I can also see the other side of the coin as well. If it were me, I would not
worry about my avatar and get out and try to meet some of the fine folks around on this forum, I am
pretty sure that the discussion wouldn't be about 'avatars' but about sharing our collective experiences
verbally to hopefully better understand one another and who knows, make a difference?

Hey Spiffy, meeting people and asking questions was what I have been trying to do brother. Slowly.
IRL (as well as online), I do tend to give people the benefit of the doubt unless they give me pause
to think otherwise.

Question:

When did the word or "thing" avatar get placed into our common vocabulary? (just curious)

If by 'word or "thing" avatar" you mean the avatar I replaced today? I've had it since 8 Oct when I joined this site.
Some people have more issues than others in their lives and those issues sometimes become apparent in the
context of an online forum's posts.

Thanks for your response

Actually, I was wondering if some of the web smart folks around here new when the 'avatar' (and the origin of the word) came to be....I know, silly trivia but I kinda want to know...

[Amskeptic]

Since Colin has expressed his distaste with those smilies, I can only hope in the next incarnation of this (IAC) website that they will not
exist. To be "consistent" that is.

It would be poor judgment to use in General Chat or Events and Shows. Hopefully they can be used in Free Speech with abandon and to good effect. Instead of censoring and deleting them upfront, I will help nurture people's abilities to make responsible choices as to where to enjoy the full scope of these marvelously distasteful emoticons, yaah?

It is perfectly attainable for all to enjoy the salty and the sweet on the same site. No salt in the dessert, please.
Colin

[Elwood]

zblair, I want to try to respond to your post with out offending anyone. Im not the best at getting my point across ~ so please ~ lets talk about it so maybe we can improve understanding.

I disliked your avatar and wondered why it was allowed but also I dislike the nasty smilies when used as avatars or on forums other than Free Speech. As Colin said "It is too bad you could not have a Free Speech" avatar. This site is new and growing and Im positive these things will get worked out. Now with over 200 members, it must be a hugh job for Randy and Colin to ride herd on us and keep it the special place we like to share our air-cooled stuff and have the space to exchange just about anything on our minds. And as I have been warned, follow the rules of civility!!!
I injoy reading your post about your husband and how you are working on it. And it is really nice on this site we can include the fringe of a bit of our personal situations to bring us closer together. This world sure needs more of that~Don,t ya think?

Peace Barb and Elwood/Jake