Arguments for God

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BellePlaine
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Arguments for God

Post by BellePlaine » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:46 am

I’m an agnostic.

I agree with Carl Sagan that there are things which we know, things which we don’t know now but will come to know someday, and perhaps things which we will never know. Regarding “things that we don’t know now, but will” part, Sagan gives an example; we use to give some stars in our solar system God-like attributes because they could seemingly move in different directions from the other stars, not realizing that they are planets revolving around the sun. We have used God to explain the unexplained. As we gain further understanding of our world, we need God less. Thus, I cannot be 100% certain that God exists but because science hasn’t answered everything, I cannot be certain that he doesn’t exist either.

Now, check this blog post out. It poses some logical arguments for the existence of God.

http://www.freedomtwentyfive.com/2013/0 ... seriously/

Why You Should Take The God Hypothesis Seriously

by Frost on January 24, 2013


I am not a Christian. But, I take Christianity far more seriously than most.

Taking Christianity seriously marks me as an oddity in the modern era, wherein everyone who’s anyone knows that only low-class, backwards, half-retarded rubes ever consider the possibility that the story of biblical Jesus Christ is anything more than a fairy tale. A little while ago, I told someone close to me that I was reading the Bible and a stack of Christian writers in an effort to better understand the origins of western history and philosophy. Their off-hand response was: “I suppose that might be interesting. But honestly, as soon as I find out a person is a Christian, I lose all intellectual respect for anything they say after that.”

Well. That’s certainly one way to look at it. But imagine making the same statement about Muslims, Buddhists, Koreans, teachers, pipefitters, tall people, feminists, conservatives… or really, any sort of differentiable group of people. With any other target, such a statement would be beyond crass. When Christianity is our subject of ridicule though, full speed ahead.

The stronger the modern leftist taboo around a given set of beliefs – i.e., feminism, global warming, human biological uniformity – the more likely it is to be true. Such is the trend I’ve noticed.

Our universe appears, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to be the product of either design or evolution. This is absolutely beyond dispute. Paley’s watchmaker, now armed with our 21st-century knowledge of cosmological constants, exists. I repeat, this is an observable fact about our universe that is beyond dispute: Our existential plane gives every appearance of having been designed with the intent of hosting intelligent life. Richard Dawkins, the closest thing atheism has to a pope, devotes the second half of The God Delusion, not to refuting this observation, but rather to offering alternatives explanations.

And yes, there are alternatives. Our universe could be one of an infinite number. This is the Multiverse Hypothesis. Combined with the Anthropic Principle, it provides a perfectly reasonable and God-free explanation for the otherwise implausible existence of our fine-tuned universe.

Does God exist? Or are we the fortunate inhabitants of one of a few habitable worlds among multitudes of lifeless parallel universes? Both explanations are, to a first approximation, pretty far out. Hence, my agnosticism.

But when I look around the world, I see many agnostics (and many Christians) who are agnostic (or Christian) in name only, while their actions betray their true atheism.

Consider: If you are uncertain of whether a proposition is true, and the truth or falsity of that proposition is extremely relevant to your life, the rational thing to do is expend as much time and energy as possible evaluating that proposition. Say, you are legitimately unsure of whether there is a suitcase filled with hundred dollar bills hidden somewhere in your basement. Or, that your house is on fire.

In either situation, if there is any doubt in your mind, if you are any less than ~100% sure that there is no suitcase and no fire – you would be a fool not to immediately set about finding the truth. Right now, as I type this, I am ~100% sure that my house is not on fire. If the fire alarm were to go off right now, I would adjust this probability to 95%. (If that seems high, keep in mind my roommates and I are not good cooks.) Still, that five percent possibility is enough that I would immediately stop what I’m doing and figure out if the house is on fire or not.

The truth or falsity of the God Hypothesis is vastly more relevant to our lives than a mere fire. The logical and evidential case for the possibility of the existence of God is quite strong, if not conclusive. So why are most men completely unconcerned with the question of whether God exists?

Further to all this, Pascal’s Wager is an irrefutable case for why any hedonist who is not completely convinced of the non-existence of God, should immediately start living a pious life and do his utmost to ‘trick’ himself into believing through prayer, readings of the bible, and immersion in a social milieu conducive to Christian brainwashing.

But, while the case for literal, certain atheism is extraordinarily and obviously weak (not even Richard Dawkins can bring himself to endorse it in The God Delusion), many atheists are completely convinced of the non-existence of God.

Much of this flows from the success of a clever rhetorical trick on the part of atheist thinkers: The re-definition of God.

There exist many sound logical proofs of God’s non-existence. But each takes His literal omniscience, omnibenevolence, and omnipotence as their core premises, rendering them cute but meaningless:

Can God create a rock so heavy he himself cannot move it? Checkmate, Christians!

If God knows everything that will ever happen, how can we have free will? Checkmate, Christians!

If God is perfectly good, why does little Suzie Jenkins have leukemia? CHECK and MATE, Christians!

And so on.

There is some scriptural basis for assigning these qualities to God. But I think we should make the distinction between literal and effective omnipotence. When God describes himself to humanity, we’re on a need-to-know basis.

God is, to us, for our own practical purposes, all-powerful. Much like, if you could communicate with a population of sentient avatars in a game of SimCity 2000, you might similarly describe yourself to them. And it would not be dishonest. From the Sims perspective, you are God. Sometimes you fuck up, sometimes you have to get up and take a piss, and there are some limitations to what you can and cannot will in the context of the game. But…details, you know?

Taking this view of our God, limited somehow – though all-powerful and all-knowing within the context of our own existence – makes Him much, much more plausible. God is God – to us. But perhaps, at some level, he has his own problems. Perhaps he has his own God or Gods to answer to. I don’t think this idea is at all incompatible with Christian scripture.

I also don’t think its nearly as ‘far-out’ and ‘weird’ as it may appear at a first pass. Humanity, right here and right now, seems to be on the verge of creating our own ‘artificial’ intelligences, i.e. sentient life forms who inhabit a digital plane of existence subordinate to our own, to whom we would be, essentially, Gods. Perhaps we’re the product of some earlier iteration of this process, in which intelligent life begats intelligent life on a lower plane of existence than itself.

If humans are mere decades away from becoming, in a sense, creator-Gods, how can we dismiss the possibility that the universe we inhabit is the product of a similar event? Many bright people who would (rationally) admit that it is well within the realm of possibility for human beings to become Gods, irrationally deny that it’s possible we have a God.

*

But What if God is a Dick?

Much is said on the subject of whether God exists or not. But comparatively little energy is spent considering whether God is good or evil. I actually think that this is a much more interesting question than that of his existence. What if God hates us? Or is indifferent to us? What if God’s pretensions to loving us and wanting us to find salvation are a scam? That would be a pretty awkward position for humanity.

But here are my two reasons for believing that God, if he exists, has our best interests at heart.

The truth is hard to come by

The history of Christianity is complex. A smart person can spend a lot of time and energy parsing the philosophical and historical arguments for and against the existence of Christ, and still walk away unsatisfied. I offer this as evidence for, not the existence of God, but the conditional proposition that if God exists, then he is good.

Let’s say you were a God. You are a God who wants to judge your creations on the strength of their character and their faith. But, the subjects of your creation naturally differ in cognitive ability, so you cannot make your existence a mere test of reading comprehension or a logic puzzle – if you did, you would only reward the intelligent and punish the dim.

So you want to create a test that poses an equal, or at least equitable challenge to smart and dumb creations alike.

If that were my goal, as God, I would reveal myself to humanity in such a way that the essential goodness of my message was easily grokked in the primitive hindbrain cockles of the left side of the bell curve, while sending the intelligent and inquisitive in a long and arduous hunt through the philosophical and historiographical arguments for and against my existence. I would reveal myself in such a way that my individual creations, no matter what their given level of intelligence, could not ever arrive at a state of perfect certainty with regard to my existence. I would deprive no one, smart or dumb, of the fundamental choice to believe or not.

*

The minimalist nature of God’s revelation to us suggests his benevolence in another way.

God desires our obedience, allegedly, for our own sake. We can follow God or not – He is, as we say, outcome independent. God would like us to be good, for our own sake. But, an evil God would say that, wouldn’t he?

If we accept that God exists, we must also consider the possibility that our creator wants us to obey for some other reason.

Suppose you created a race of artificial intelligences in a supercomputer. Might you consider telling them that you are God, and invent some narrative whereby they will be saved if they toil all their lives coming up with HFT algorithms that make you jillions of dollars? I certainly would. So, maybe our God is pulling a fast one on us.

But, if that were the case, God would hold daily conference calls with anyone who ever doubted his existence. All the better to keep us serving and obeying. As it stands, God seems content with a world in which very few of his creations even attempt to do as he commands. This, ironically, suggests that he has our best interests (or at least, the interests of the best of us) at heart.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by Spezialist » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:40 pm

Gen. 3:3 everything after is man negotiating with G0D

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Re: Arguments for God

Post by hippiewannabe » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:16 am

Sadly, God has never spoken to me.

Most of what we have to go on is words written by men who claim God spoke to them.

It seems anybody in modern times who claims God spoke to them is at best a charlatan, or at worst, a psychopath.

I think the literal creation story of Genesis is an amalgamation of previous creation stories, and is nonsensical in light of modern science.

I believe that the teaching of Jesus, with respect to how we should live our lives and treat our fellow human beings, is as good as any.

I don't know what that makes me on the religious spectrum, but it doesn't preclude the existence of God, or minimize the fallibility of man.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by JLT » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:20 pm

hippiewannabe wrote: I believe that the teaching of Jesus, with respect to how we should live our lives and treat our fellow human beings, is as good as any.
I think that's true. It certainly works better for me than an image of God With A Big Stick who smites those who piss Him off.

Jesus's original message (before people wrote him up the way they wanted to imagine him) may have been similar to Buddha's -- that you respect others and refrain from anti-social acts because it's the right thing to do, not because God wishes you to do so. That avoids the dangerous assumption, demonstrated countless times in history, that you can disrespect and even murder people if you think that God tells you that it would please him in this particular case, and therefore what would have been unacceptable moral behavior somehow becomes a sacred duty.

That's what makes John Lennon's Imagine such a powerful statment ... Imagine what we could do if there were nothing we felt we had to kill or die for, and no religion that tells us that we have to perform these atrocities.

I'm not saying that we need no moral compasses. I'm only saying that religion can be an unreliable moral compass, and we need better ones.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by hambone » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:28 pm

I think it comes to purity, and readiness. Every baby's smile is God, how much do we filter out in this horrible life?
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by satchmo » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:41 am

Please define God.

If , as you and Carl Sagan suggest, God is just the answer to questions we currently don't have an answer for, our need for God decreases as we learn more about how things work. Given enough time then, God all but disappears as we continue in our quest of discovery and advance in knowledge. With time, we acquire all the knowledge we previously ascribed to God. In essence, we become God.

This isn't much different from the Hindu Vedanta philosophical tradition. The pervasive feeling that we are an intelligence/soul housed in a bag of skin and separate from one another, the world, and God, is an illusion. In truth, we are all God, as is everything around us; we just don't know it yet. Our goal in life is to realize that there is no me-God duality. In time, we discover that there is only a oneness, a wholeness, an IT. And we are IT.

Namaste,

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Re: Arguments for God

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:03 am

Some great threads starting around here, but I don't yet have time to respond to them.

I love this topic.

So far, I see us humans anthropomorphising God into our shoebox attributes of personality and intention, and it makes me claustrophobic.

Quickly, but I must go, I do NOT subscribe to the "all-powerful" model of God, because I *do* subscribe to the freedom that we have been granted. Because we have free will, we are free to screw it up. Because we are free to screw it up, God has relinquished determinism, and thus All Powerful blah blah blah. It takes an amazing courage to let go and let be. Parents can tell you this. I think the evolution from the Old Testament to the New Testament was a story of God having to let go of the authoritarian crap and let us discover the path through love and our own hearts. That makes it far more serious for us to do the right thing here on Earth. We are a critical component of this existence. It is up to us to maintain and nurture this Earth and all of its inhabitants.

I am sick and tired of people claiming there is no God every time a little sparrow dies of frost or little Susie dies of leukemia. It is Amazing that little Susie took a breath in the first place, it is a Miracle that little Susie was loved, and the mechanics of this world include leukemia and frost, it is Amazing. Scientists at the vanguard of discoveries are still free to marvel in Amazingness, nothing about science takes away from the miracle of the Universe. Maybe sometimes we think that because we have learned new things about how it works, we can dispense with the Designer. I can't. When I saw the Earth for the first time, "hey! this sucker really is round," it only confirmed my sense of the great fiercesome beauty of this Creation.

What is also amazing to me, is that the selfishness of "evil" can rationalize allowing the suffering that we unleash upon each other. We can do better, without that passive deterministic "it is in God's Hands" cop out. We can be agents of Divinity here on Earth in our every action. We are surrounded by "proof" of God that only we can come to in our own individual way. That maintains the freedom we have to acknowledge a Divine Presence or NOT acknowledge a Divine Presence. I enjoy conversing with anyone on this Earth about God whilst maintaining their right to agree or disagree with His/Her/its Existence.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by BellePlaine » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:49 pm

Consider E=MC2. Matter is created from energy and vice versa. If we can split atoms to create massive explosions, I imagine that it would take the same amount of energy to make the atoms whole again. Then think about the Big Bang! All of the atoms that make up everything: our bodies, our Sun, the Universe was created in an instant. Perhaps even the Universe has a life cycle and perhaps "our time" isn't the first/only time. Maybe it's all been recycled. The scale of it is incompressible. Define God? E=MC2.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:30 pm

BellePlaine wrote:Consider E=MC2. Matter is created from energy and vice versa. If we can split atoms to create massive explosions, I imagine that it would take the same amount of energy to make the atoms whole again. Then think about the Big Bang! All of the atoms that make up everything: our bodies, our Sun, the Universe was created in an instant. Perhaps even the Universe has a life cycle and perhaps "our time" isn't the first/only time. Maybe it's all been recycled. The scale of it is incompressible. Define God? E=MC2.
This is where I like to drag the Science Disproves God people and the Creationist Fairytale people.

I love how the Heisenburg Principle forced us out of the secure confines of Classical Physics where Newton's Laws got confronted with uncertainty. We had to "evolve" to a new stage of openess to the new indicators, or they would have been shot down by the authority of the status quo, just like the flat earth folks and the sun-revolves-around-the-Earth folks eventually had to let go of the incorrect status-quo and embrace a larger more-inclusive reality.

Many religions are stuck in Classical Religious Laws, but there is a vast and beautiful and serious uncertainty. The Heisenburg Principle opened up notions of "free will" in electrons. Later quantum physics grappled with matter reacting to other matter "across the room", quantum entanglement, where the speed limit of light was violated by some huge factor. You think this behavior might apply to us, made as we are, of the very atoms that are proving to be so "autonomous" and "slippery" and difficult to tame?

We have to be patient and walk the science walk, we must remain in the order of our discoveries , within the disciplines of observation and replication, but allow our minds to speculate and ponder as we wish, to let our imaginations jump across distances faster than the speed of light even.

So too I wish it were true of religiosity, spiritual pondering, and belief, that we not limit ourselves with ancient dogmas and old status-quo authorities with small agendas.

I am getting old and tired. I have seen this stupid old life thing every day. Every breath a damn miracle of coughing and phlegm, every beautiful baby is going to get its friggen face slapped one of these days, the evolution of humanity looks like 83,277 steps backward to every 83,278 steps forward, I am sick of how we limit ourselves with lies and greed and cruelty, at least on Tuesdays Thursdays and Saturdays. But on Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays, humans also rope me in with laughs aplenty and new love and music and crazy feats of football, and best of all for me, our unstoppable relentless curiosity, our development of more powerful tools to explore this Creation Or Whatever You Call It. Our quest to see and understand has been a painstakingly built body of knowledge to reveal a Universe that becomes only more beautiful. How can that be? Why doesn't our every new understanding make us that much more more jaded, like the poor gynecologist who has to come home after an exhausting work week to his amorous wife?

My belief system has endeavored to keep the door open to everything we think we know and everything that we do not. Terms like "good" and "evil" get smaller by the day. Terms like "all-powerful" seem more insecure and worthless by the day. I think our each and every lifetime's work is huge right into the most mendacious corners of human experience.

I am going to figure this thing out on my own without a bunch of hocus pocus fraidy cats from 2,000 years ago who attempted to co-opt the message for profit and personal gain.

I have experienced love, it is not oxytocin, it is not even "pleasant", it is a fierce current, I do not claim to know what the hell it is, but over here in baldy cranium-land, it is an immutable force as reliable as the weak force, gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong force.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:45 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:Sadly, God has never spoken to me.
Be glad.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by BellePlaine » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:37 pm

Honestly, letting go of the idea I needed to pick a side and join a team; Intelligent Design or Lucky Fools, Right Place/Right Time, felt uncomfortable at first. The Truth is the truth but what is it? Why does anyone claim to know when the answer is beyond our capability? Yet declaring agnostic is like jumping out of Noah's Ark to take your chances on finding your own dry land. Noah would think that you were the crazy one.

I agree that the terms "good" and "evil" are small(er). They are the same thing, just different perspectives. Perhaps the same holds true for Heaven and Hell. I like to imagine that to us, to humanity, Heaven/Hell is now. It's here on Earth. We might be living it. That in a fraction of a picosecond, energy became matter, some of which became our galaxy, of which some became our star and our solar system, and our planet. How can this place not be Heaven? And Hell, given perspective? I'm not saying that I know, but I'm open to the notion.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:15 am

BellePlaine wrote:Honestly, letting go of the idea I needed to pick a side and join a team; Intelligent Design or Lucky Fools, Right Place/Right Time, felt uncomfortable at first. The Truth is the truth but what is it? Why does anyone claim to know when the answer is beyond our capability? Yet declaring agnostic is like jumping out of Noah's Ark to take your chances on finding your own dry land. Noah would think that you were the crazy one.

I agree that the terms "good" and "evil" are small(er). They are the same thing, just different perspectives. Perhaps the same holds true for Heaven and Hell. I like to imagine that to us, to humanity, Heaven/Hell is now. It's here on Earth. We might be living it. That in a fraction of a picosecond, energy became matter, some of which became our galaxy, of which some became our star and our solar system, and our planet. How can this place not be Heaven? And Hell, given perspective? I'm not saying that I know, but I'm open to the notion.
You are a mind open to possibility. That is all you need. It is pretty clear to me that we all have to arrive at our own answers or we will end up as dumb cows led around by our nose rings.

It always seemed cheap to me that religions would threaten people with something so depraved and disgusting as their depictions of "hell" if their flock didn't toe to their party line.

I love this heaven/hell conundrum and have had some exciting and almost dangerous conversations with preachers in Georgia and Texas about "what the HELL kind of Loving God would send His Children to Eternal Hell?" followed with a nice personal example, "would you consign your own beloved wayward child to Eternal (that's a mighty long time) Hell?" followed by an even more personal example, "would Hell be a preacher preaching to his flock all the Good Words while he sinned mightily in secret?"
Anyways, I am still alive to ponder.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by RSorak 71Westy » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:51 pm

None of this man's arguments hold any water for me. They are tenuous at best. The arguments against god existence are much more convincing. I hate that it's impossible to prove a negative, therefore impossible to prove god doesn't exist, because I think America needs a big wake up call, for being so provincial and behind the times on this subject.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:55 pm

RSorak 71Westy wrote:None of this man's arguments hold any water for me. They are tenuous at best. The arguments against god existence are much more convincing. I hate that it's impossible to prove a negative, therefore impossible to prove god doesn't exist, because I think America needs a big wake up call, for being so provincial and behind the times on this subject.
Well, let's say that we are provincial and behind the times with our crude organized religions, but that we are very much at the vanguard of philosophical inquiry into the nature of the Universe and spirit and consciousness, which again, had better not be provable by Science. Science has chosen to remain in the province of observable phenomena and testable hypotheses. That is how we have been able to arrive at the only common language across all cultures where conclusions are accepted.

Science is NOT an antithetical to the presence or potential for God. It remains in the observable Universe and we are FREE to find, search, feel, accept, deny, reject God . . . *individually*.
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Re: Arguments for God

Post by Spezialist » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:12 pm

Spezialist wrote:Gen. 3:3 everything after is man negotiating with G0D

Edit.
Man negotiating with a book.

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