Rob's 2nd Amendment Thread

[Cindy]

My father bought paint ball guns for his grandsons this past Christmas. I found out about it right after the Sandy Hook shootings so, of course, it gave me pause. But then I thought of my kid, a sunny 10-year-old boy.

Emmett has a remarkably gentle way with every kind of living thing--from dogs to dwarf hamsters and goldfish. So I sensed, as I mulled it over, that the gun wouldn't be a "problem." My values (imprinted upon him) and his rather sweet disposition will trump any feared "effect" from the gun itself. The gun won't change him. And so I say, have fun! (I'll say the same thing when my dad wants to give him his first rifle.)

It makes me think that raising our children better would make all the difference in the world. I say raise them to care, make sure they feel secure, and don't exhaust their natural good will! It takes A LOT to send an innocent child into the stratosphere of dysfunctional adulthood, but we do it every day in this great nation--with every uncalled-for harsh word, every incident of physical or sexual abuse, and even with "benign" neglect. (I've seen parents pick their toddlers up at day care and go immediately to their cell phones while the poor kids trail behind on the way to the car. I want to shake them and say--You haven't seen your child in 10 hours!!)

I know it's a drastic viewpoint, but I believe it: we plant the seeds for anger early on, and if an angry boy grows up to be an angry man with a gun--bad combination.

Colin said democracy was "sloppy." So is parenting. And doing it right is almost never easy. But we've been screwing it up for too long, as a culture. We're paying the price.

Cindy

[Amskeptic]

My father bought paint ball guns for his grandsons this past Christmas. I found out about it right after the Sandy Hook shootings so, of course, it gave me pause. But then I thought of my kid, a sunny 10-year-old boy.

Emmett has a remarkably gentle way with every kind of living thing--from dogs to dwarf hamsters and goldfish. So I sensed, as I mulled it over, that the gun wouldn't be a "problem." My values (imprinted upon him) and his rather sweet disposition will trump any feared "effect" from the gun itself. The gun won't change him. And so I say, have fun! (I'll say the same thing when my dad wants to give him his first rifle.)

It makes me think that raising our children better would make all the difference in the world. I say raise them to care, make sure they feel secure, and don't exhaust their natural good will! It takes A LOT to send an innocent child into the stratosphere of dysfunctional adulthood, but we do it every day in this great nation--with every uncalled-for harsh word, every incident of physical or sexual abuse, and even with "benign" neglect. (I've seen parents pick their toddlers up at day care and go immediately to their cell phones while the poor kids trail behind on the way to the car. I want to shake them and say--You haven't seen your child in 10 hours!!)

I know it's a drastic viewpoint, but I believe it: we plant the seeds for anger early on, and if an angry boy grows up to be an angry man with a gun--bad combination.

Colin said democracy was "sloppy." So is parenting. And doing it right is almost never easy. But we've been screwing it up for too long, as a culture. We're paying the price.

Cindy

Amen to that. All of it.
=D>

[Bleyseng]

We as a country have grown more polarized since then and the gun culture or cultural violence is rampant

I like Martin Luther King. He comes from deep true places that I wish I could find in myself more often.
Colin

I admire Dr King too. But I think he's mistaken. Somewhere in all the noise behind the gun vs antigun discussion I have this needling feeling we are missing the obvious. Maybe something important. I know gun owners and wouldn't characterize any of them as violent or hateful. Most of their guns sit benignly with more usefulness as a poor hammer than a lethal weapon. And yet I keep hearing its the guns! Its the guns! What if it's not the guns and we miss this opportunity to do something important to really bring about meaningful change.

Well, yes its the people with the guns. I see its too easy of access to plentiful gun which is a bad combination.

[Amskeptic]

We as a country have grown more polarized since then and the gun culture or cultural violence is rampant

I like Martin Luther King. He comes from deep true places that I wish I could find in myself more often.
Colin

I admire Dr King too. But I think he's mistaken. Somewhere in all the noise behind the gun vs antigun discussion I have this needling feeling we are missing the obvious. Maybe something important. I know gun owners and wouldn't characterize any of them as violent or hateful. Most of their guns sit benignly with more usefulness as a poor hammer than a lethal weapon. And yet I keep hearing its the guns! Its the guns! What if it's not the guns and we miss this opportunity to do something important to really bring about meaningful change.

I say that not everyone should have access to a Lamborghini! They can't handle it! They may also have some stupid immature ego need that makes them doubly dangerous behind the wheel of a Lamborghini! I don't want to take away their right to drive. I want to figure out a way how to make the roads safer! That's it!

I say that not everyone needs an automatic military grade weapon of mass-killing capability! It is consistent with how I feel about a bunch of things.
(I think alcohol should be seriously controlled! I see people die needlessly! Why the hell can't we have a sensible discussion about ways to limit its destructiveness?)

I don't think automatic military grade gun proponents have shown due diligence in explaining why they think it is so important to make them so *readily* available! I think these 2nd Amendment arguments are specious in the extreme! That is why they get so upset so *quickly* at others who are seriously trying to find some answers! I do not want to see more people get killed by drunk drivers! and I do not want to see more 1st graders get gunned down in classrooms!

Therefore:
No Lamborghinis sold without a Bob Bonderant Driving School Diploma and a chip for public road use!
No military style assault weapons with extended clips! This is not a violation of Constitutional Rights.

I don't think Martin Luther King was missing a thing in his observations. What was he missing? He wasn't ranting about guns! He was mentioning that people are not exercising their higher humanity, and that our culture glorifies the violent solution. Well? It does, you know. Peaceful negotiation would not sell in a Terminator movie.
Colin

[Bleyseng]

We as a country have grown more polarized since then and the gun culture or cultural violence is rampant

I like Martin Luther King. He comes from deep true places that I wish I could find in myself more often.
Colin

Therefore:
Peaceful negotiation would not sell in a Terminator movie.
Colin

"I'll be back"

[Hippie]

I didn't realize Lambos were such a problem out there. Never see 'em in Iowa.
Most of the idjits that kill or get killed around here are driving minivans and stuff.

The major problem as I see it is the traffic situation is so heavy at times that you almost have to be an expert driver. Too many cars on the roads at the same time. That and distracted driving...but they're related because it's more dangerous in traffic. The solution is simple as pie, go back to the fuel rationing cards like during WWII. Rationing would vary based on proven need to drive X many miles a week, plus a little for emergencies. Vacation trips should be applied for with a stated route, and then a card could be issued for gas stations along that route, for X number of gallons. Same with business trips...though many, if not most, most can be done with internet now anyway. Not only save a tremendous number of lives, but good for the environment.

I need to look into petitioning for a Bill on this. I have the time.

(I'm accurate, JLT, on my observations and expectations.)

[Bleyseng]

I didn't realize Lambos were such a problem out there. Never see 'em in Iowa.
Most of the idjits that kill or get killed around here are driving minivans and stuff.

The major problem as I see it is the traffic situation is so heavy at times that you almost have to be an expert driver. Too many cars on the roads at the same time. That and distracted driving...but they're related because it's more dangerous in traffic. The solution is simple as pie, go back to the fuel rationing cards like during WWII. Rationing would vary based on proven need to drive X many miles a week, plus a little for emergencies. Vacation trips should be applied for with a stated route, and then a card could be issued for gas stations along that route, for X number of gallons. Same with business trips...though many, if not most, most can be done with internet now anyway. Not only save a tremendous number of lives, but good for the environment.

I need to look into petitioning for a Bill on this. I have the time.

(I'm accurate, JLT, on my observations and expectations.)

I would apply this reasoning to gun owner and ration gun ownership based on need. You want a gun at home, ok you get a permit for a six shooter 9mm. You hunt, you get a 30.06 rifle bolt action permit..etc.

[RussellK]

Well, yes its the people with the guns. I see its too easy of access to plentiful gun which is a bad combination.

I would correct that to read it's the wrong people with guns. And that's the rub. The wrong people aren't likely to concern themselves with whatever laws are written. Look. I'm not saying we don't have a problem in this country. We do. But I think it runs deeper than what any gun legislation is going to address. Look at it this way. Gun legislation would affect Cindy's son who we all agree is a gentle soul never apt to cause a problem but the two that shot a cop here last night will never give the law a thought. Should we have some restrictions? Of course. I've always said training and proficiency demonstration should be a requirement. I think clip size and ammo type is another thing we need to address. I think the gun show loophole should be closed. But I'm also suggesting that while we can do all this we may be disappointed in the results if we don't begin to look beyond the gun as the cause of what is ailing us as a country. Guns may well be a symptom but we'll still have the illness.

[Hippie]

I would apply this reasoning to gun owner and ration gun ownership based on need. You want a gun at home, ok you get a permit for a six shooter 9mm. You hunt, you get a 30.06 rifle bolt action permit..etc.

I know you would. The difference is, my plan would actually save lives.

[Bleyseng]

Any plan will save lives...so we do all of these ideas, limiting guns, more training, etc and it will save lives. Easy access to guns means a nutcase can just grab the nearest gun and shoot away. Limit guns and maybe he will grab a knife or a axe which gives people a freaking chance to run away. I have faced a knife before and out ran the nut and faced a gun and fortunately he pointed it and waved it around giving me time to bolt.
If we reduced the gun deaths by 20% its well worth it!
I agree we need to address the issues facing this country and cutting the budget wiping out needed programs is a joke. Government spending is down so its time to fuel the economy with money so people get back to work and corporations pay their share of taxes to balance the budget.

[Hippie]

Bleyseng I think I've addressed these issues before. I'm wondering if you even care about public safety, or have some other agenda here.

I'll just step back out now so you and Colin can have the last word.

Cheers,
Rob

[RussellK]

I agree we need to address the issues facing this country and cutting the budget wiping out needed programs is a joke. Government spending is down so its time to fuel the economy with money so people get back to work and corporations pay their share of taxes to balance the budget.

Yes but relevant to this topic I was thinking of the isolation people feel, the lack of respect we seem to have for others and our propensity toward violence as an answer. If there is an anger meter we must be off the charts. This is where I'd like to see the national dialogue headed.

[Bleyseng]

Bleyseng I think I've addressed these issues before. I'm wondering if you even care about public safety, or have some other agenda here.

I'll just step back out now so you and Colin can have the last word.

Cheers,
Rob

I am all for public safety as in the police, State patrol, sheriffs etc provide it vs gun carrying citizens. I feel completely unsafe when I am around a bunch of people carrying guns especially in Public. I don't like the GOP pushing these cuts to the States as they will be cutting police and other needed services.

[Amskeptic]

Bleyseng I think I've addressed these issues before. I'm wondering if you even care about public safety, or have some other agenda here.

I'll just step back out now so you and Colin can have the last word.

Cheers,
Rob

Do you see "ego" in our attempts to find solutions and consider possibilities?

I see ego in hair-trigger reactiveness. I know something about people who use anger or sarcasm to manipulate others, who speak of others agendas, who claim that they are victims when they are bullying. Would you please just participate nice and easy, and lay off the "you" stuff, and speak from the heart with "I" sentences?
Colin

[Hippie]

Easy access to guns means a nutcase can just grab the nearest gun and shoot away. Limit guns and maybe he will grab a knife or a axe which gives people a freaking chance to run away. I have faced a knife before and out ran the nut and faced a gun and fortunately he pointed it and waved it around giving me time to bolt.

It seems to me now that this may be a personal phobia? Sure, running away from a gun, as well as a knife, if you have a route, is the best solution. Self defence experts say that in the case of attempted abductions with guns, for example, the statistical odds of the abductor firing the gun in public is 12%, you chance of being hit for bolting is 6%, and fatally injured 3%. You might save a life here without easy access to guns, but cost 2 or 3 elsewhere. Every situation is different, and looking at the big picture, as I have attempted to do/show, shows no evidence in that big picture, that gun access reduces your odds of being murdered, and mat well increase them, overall. The average nutcase or crook doesn't ever seem to end up without easy access to guns when you limit access to the non-nutcases, by legislation.

Do you see "ego" in our attempts to find solutions and consider possibilities?

I see ego in hair-trigger reactiveness. I know something about people who use anger or sarcasm to manipulate others, who speak of others agendas, who claim that they are victims when they are bullying. Would you please just participate nice and easy, and lay off the "you" stuff, and speak from the heart with "I" sentences?
Colin

Ego? I'm not sure. I went to an engineering college. I am not particularly well versed in psychology. I know stats and cause and effect analysis.

I see frustration on my part, laying out premise after premise, leading to a logical conclusion. I see many points and analogies--sometimes taken to the extreme to illustrate failure of logic on the part of many anti-gun arguments--often ignored, and the anti-gun arguments going back to the same biased, emotional propaganda that I have tried hard to dispel.
I have seen the historical step by step removal of gun rights or other freedoms when the governments and the media have waited for the next public shooting they choose to report with whatever is the next handy means in order to ban the next thing. I have seen the ineffective results be ignored. Agenda? I have seen the media mislead the public and discredit themselves incicating that they themselves know there is no public benefit to most of these laws. Agenday? Yes, that's the only possibility that's left. No wonder gun rights people in this country are screaming "Not one more inch!"

"Manipulate"? You accuse me of manuipulation? I was trying for a factual debate. You had every chance to participate in that.
Are you angry at me because you just couldn't keep up? You don't know anything about me at all.

I know that you are a good hearted man, but I don't have any common ground with you on this issue.

PS, you are a good guy in general, I know that, but I'm kind of sick of you being a asshole to me. So far you've accused me of ego, manipulation, and leaving in a pout. Regarding our friendship, fuck that. I have enough friends that never insult or attempt to belittle me. Perhaps your hubris will not let you see it when you speak top others like children? The more I thoght about this this morning. The more pissed off I got.

Excuse, me, I'm going to leave, and not in a "pout." You can cancel my membership, because I just did...again.