Rob's 2nd Amendment Thread

[Bleyseng]

The average nutcase or crook doesn't ever seem to end up without easy access to guns when you limit access to the non-nutcases, by legislation.
.

Take the last Sandy Hook killings where a paranoid mother had those guns (unlocked I think) in the house for her known wackjob son. He supposedly did the killings as he found out about his impending lockup but she didn't take care of her guns safely or she shouldn't even had the damn guns in the house. Laws restricting ownership of guns to people would have stopped these killings. Fact.

Doing nothing seems to be your plan and that means the status quo of what we have now, unacceptable to 80% of the population now per the latest polls not funded by the NRA.
Sometimes a big drastic step backwards is required to make progress but doing nothing isn't progress but stupidity.
Personal? No, I just post my views here on various subjects as sometimes I have time on my hands between spraying coats of paint.

[RussellK]

I feel completely unsafe when I am around a bunch of people carrying guns especially in Public.

It gives me pause. In my state we have concealed carry permits and the idea that you can carry a concealed gun just because you want to seems crazy. It's incredibly hard to hit something with a pistol unless you spend a ton of time practicing and the required training to get these permits seems minimal. A couple of months ago a hospital and nearby school went on lockdown because a guy with a concealed carry permit accidentally fired his gun. Another permit holder accidentally shot a student at a school he was visiting when he dropped his coat that contained his gun. I don't think either were charged since they had permits but I think they should have been and had their permits taken.

[BellePlaine]

This is where I get to discuss this with no particular end in mind...that is, I know that positions and voting are most generally based upon emotion, narrow or wishful thinking, and/or misinformation. It has always been this way through the long history of human suffering...and therefore one cannot change most, or at least many, peoples' established views by debate nor evidence.

For me, the value of debate is to seek the truth and understanding. The only viewpoint that I can hope to change is my own. What someone believes is less important (to me) than why they believe what they believe. We can continue to go tit-for-tat forever but understanding comes about from asking questions from each other. Lets keep trying because if a small diverse group like the IAC can't do it then certainly we (all of us) are fucked. Yeah?

[Bleyseng]

I feel completely unsafe when I am around a bunch of people carrying guns especially in Public.

It gives me pause. In my state we have concealed carry permits and the idea that you can carry a concealed gun just because you want to seems crazy. It's incredibly hard to hit something with a pistol unless you spend a ton of time practicing and the required training to get these permits seems minimal. A couple of months ago a hospital and nearby school went on lockdown because a guy with a concealed carry permit accidentally fired his gun. Another permit holder accidentally shot a student at a school he was visiting when he dropped his coat that contained his gun. I don't think either were charged since they had permits but I think they should have been and had their permits taken.

I Seattle I have attended a party where I found out several of the guys were packing (w/permits) WTF it was a BBQ. I didn't like it at all once I found out by one of them bragging about it.
In Suriname its really hard to get a CWP but I have a few friends that do so if we sell a big cabinet order ( its a cash society) I call him up for the trip to the bank. Now he practices at the shooting range every week so I trust him and know he can and will shoot if need be. Guns are hard get here in Suriname with all kinds of red tape but people are getting them slowly. The laws changed two years ago so you can now shoot a intruder in your home or yard. Before if you shot anyone you went to jail so the thieves had a field day robbing people until recently where people shoot/wound them and then shoot them in the head to make sure they are dead. Not so many robberies anymore....but that better than if the poor people caught you as they chop the thieves up with machete's until they are dead. So people ask me if I feel unsafe here and its "no" as violent crime has dropped while crime in Seattle has risen due to the economy tanking. Its amazing to see how crime drops when the economy is booming.
Now, I still am waiting for a good argument/plan on how to reduce these mass killings of innocent people. Please no NRA bullshit.

[Amskeptic]

I see frustration on my part, laying out premise after premise, leading to a logical conclusion.

You have not answered my premise that we are awash in more guns than any other civilized society and kill TENS OF THOUSANDS OF HUMAN BEINGS EVERY YEAR, so I desperately, achingly, want some sensible regulations, not to take away anyone's rights. and your premises leading to logical conclusions are somehow more sacred? Are you kidding? Is your frustration "more serious" than my frustration?

I have seen the historical step by step removal of gun rights or other freedoms when the governments and the media have waited for the next public shooting they choose to report with whatever is the next handy means in order to ban the next thing.

Oh have you now? You have seen the historical step-by-step removal of gun rights, have you? Is this a conspiracy between the media and the government? It defies the actual history of gun ownership in America, and I promise you, never before in our history has such a cornucopia of killing methods been so readily available!

Yeah, I see a step-by-step removal, too. Of sanity. By corporate interests called Smith &Wesson, Stag Arms, Colt, Remington, a fucking 12 billion dollar a year business!! up 25% just since Obama has been in office, because the paranoid racists or secessionist nutcases or the fools! who believe their little gun collection has a chance against the modern American military have gone nutso! You think we gun control proponents are all stupid liberal nannies? Think again. The proof is out there, the paranoid whackos have lost it and have been on a buying spree since 2007. Time for the adults in the room to declare, "enough!" NOT by taking away your guns, but by regulating their purchase, distribution, and use, like any other possibly fatal drug, so shut up and deal with it. This country needs rational common sense. Please.

I have seen the ineffective results be ignored. Agenda? I have seen the media mislead the public and discredit themselves incicating that they themselves know there is no public benefit to most of these laws. Agenday? Yes, that's the only possibility that's left. No wonder gun rights people in this country are screaming "Not one more inch!"

Not one more inch! ??? Who has given an inch?? Answer that. What inch have you given while the rest of the country wonders why on Earth gun sales have exploded since Obama has been in office?
No public benefit to most of these laws? You mean they are misleading us that the laws don't seem to work? News flash! We know. That is why we are trying to figure out the next step.

"Manipulate"? You accuse me of manuipulation? I was trying for a factual debate. You had every chance to participate in that.
Are you angry at me because you just couldn't keep up? You don't know anything about me at all.

No, I am not angry with you. Re-read or post my PM to you the last time you left in a huff. Factual debate does not include threatening to leave time after time, then declaring that others here have an agenda, or that they need the last word. I am not babysitting your hair-triggeredness, that's all. On record here is your first grand exit where you went off on me,

"I'm a little disappointed that you took the opportunity of this tragedy to politicize this within, what a few minutes?
Shame on you.
I'm off this forum for good."

when in fact, I was seriously affected by what happened to my elementary school. Who actually politicised that very moment? That's a Glenn Beck/Sean Hannity Trophy for you, right there.

I'm kind of sick of you being a asshole to me. So far you've accused me of ego, manipulation, and leaving in a pout.

Well Hippie, see the above. I rest my case.
Colin

[RussellK]

Last night a guy visiting from Iowa had a legally owned Bushmaster and 200 rounds of ammo stolen from his car while staying at a hotel. So now this gun is out in circulation and will wind up in God knows whose hands. Like it or not it's things like this that help make the gun control group's case.

[Randy in Maine]

Well I have it figured out.

Universal background checks for all indiviuals purchasing gun AND ammunition. Anyone with restraining orders, past or current felony convictions, prior convictions of hunting violations (ie poaching, hunting of prohibited species, etc), or prior committments for civil or crimminal mental health reasons don't pass and they cannot purchase weapons or ammo.

Anyone caught using a firearm in commission of any crime commits a felony and goes to jail. Let the judge determine what is an appropriate time period.

Anyone acting as a "straw buyer" for someone else commits a felony and goes to jail. Let the judge determine what is an appropriate time period.

Anyone not securing their guns and ammo to prevent children or crimminals access to them (ie kept in a gun safe) or transporing loaded weapons in a prohibited place, commits a felony and goes to jail for a period for time to be determined by a judge.

Anyone who wishes to purchase a military weapon for civiliam ownership would need to be licensed as a Federal Arms Dealer.

Remove the immunity for the manufacturers of assault weapons and large ammo clips (>10 rounds) used in commission of a felony so that they may be held civilly liable or partially civilly liable for the illegal use of their products.

There.... we have not taken an weapons from any of those who have a legitimate non-crimial use of their guns. We have kept their second ammendment right to own and bear weapons.

[Bleyseng]

Last night a guy visiting from Iowa had a legally owned Bushmaster and 200 rounds of ammo stolen from his car while staying at a hotel. So now this gun is out in circulation and will wind up in God knows whose hands. Like it or not it's things like this that help make the gun control group's case.

Why is he driving around with a Bushmaster and 200 rounds in his car? Oh yeah, some road rage wacko could attack him at a stop sign.

[yondermtn]

I would be on board with Randy except for holding manufacturers responsible.

Does it really matter why that guy was driving around with a gun? Why was somebody breaking into a car that wasn't his and taking a gun that didn't belong to him?

[Randy in Maine]

I would be on board with Randy except for holding manufacturers responsible.

Immunity was granted to them in 2009 for about anything and everything. I don't know of any other industry that has been granted immunity like that.

That is why Bushmaster settled ($550K) and the Gun Shop (that did not do the required backgroiund check and knowing sold him the weapon paid $2M) prior to the blanket immunity with the "DC Sniper" victims as they thought they would be in court for millions. I think you will soon find that military weapons like these will soon be unavailable at any price.

Just found this....

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... nd-dealers

[yondermtn]

I guess I can see holding a dealer responsible for breaking the rules and selling a gun without proper background checks etc. And I could see the same with a manufacturer selling to a retailer without background checks there.

I do think that at some point we need to hold the end user responsible and not look everywhere else first. If a gun is legally sold and legally stored then stolen and used to commit a crime I don't see how we can hold the manufacturer responsible for that. We have to have some personal responsibility involved. Why not hold the raw materials suppliers responsible too? Where does this end?

[Bleyseng]

I don't see how gun manufacturers are different from tobacco/cigarette manufacturers. Both products if laying there on the table are harmless until a person either shoots or smokes it. We have decided that producing a lethal product means you are responsible whether its right or wrong. Time to tax the gun manufacturers a fair tax or let them be sued.

[RussellK]

I thought the court allowed big tobacco to be held responsible because they hid data and purposely managed nicotine levels with the intent of getting people addicted. I don't think gun manufacturers would pass the same test. Still its an interesting idea. What other industry sees its product intentionally misused to bring harm to others. Could we sue Nike because their shoes allow crooks to outrun cops?

[Amskeptic]

I thought the court allowed big tobacco to be held responsible because they hid data and purposely managed nicotine levels with the intent of getting people addicted? I don't think gun manufacturers would pass the same test. Still its an interesting idea. What other industry sees its product intentionally misused to bring harm to others. Could we sue Nike because their shoes allow crooks to outrun cops?

Gun manufacturers have indeed suppressed research into the injuries produced by guns and certain types of ammunition. The gun manufacturers and the NRA lobbied (read $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) Congress to not allow such heinous research to be conducted by that no-goodnik government of ours.
Colin

http://tinyurl.com/cuhujhu

[Velokid1]

Randy's solution makes a lot of sense, but I would love to see a new enlightened version of America where jailing people wasn't the only method of deterring or punishing bad behavior. The prison industry is huge as it is. We are capable of more imaginative solutions to our problems.